Lifespan of corals

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11678960#post11678960 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by MCsaxmaster
On most developed reefs you can find corals in excess of 400-500 years old. Really, really old corals can be found here and there in most any region.

I mean, consider the growth rates of a head coral and consider that you can often find massive corals the size of cars on many if not most reefs. If a colony of Montastraea faveolata (Mountainous Star coral, Caribbean) is a good 5 m across and has a linear extension rate of typically a few mm per year, assuming it is extending in all directions, it will take it at least 300 years to reach 5 m across, probably more like 500 years+. Branching corals normally grow much, much faster, but a single colony may occupy a huge space. You used to be able to find stands of Acropora cervicornis covering hundreds of square meters all over the Caribbean. There aren't many places that is still true, but nonetheless those stands may have been produced by corals that settled as planulae many centuries and even millenia hence.

If you go to really deep stretches on a coral reef (say 100 m down) some of the very large gorgonians and such will be on the order of thousands of years old. Some cold-water corals like Lophelia pertusa can live to be thousands of years old as well. Many of these animals do not senesce, and if nothing kills them they just keep on living and growing.

Chris

I think that your above example is a good reason to keep in mind that individual poylps are individual animals. When we talk about the age of a "coral" most are refering to the colony as a whole. Polyps on a colony probably die frequently (eaten by predators, killed by other corals ect..) but can be replaced by new members of the colony. When compaired to a social animal like ants you can see that individuals are not as important as the whole. If an individual ant dies in a colony (save the Queen) it really is not missed because of the constant reproduction and growth of the colony. Coals (individual polyps) probably don't live all that long, while the whole colony can live for many many year.
 
I understand the reasoning behind your comments, but am not sure I agree on par.

The details may vary by species, but I am not sure that you can define the individual polyps as individual animals in all cases. I could be VERY wrong though.
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11679633#post11679633 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by BeanAnimal
I understand the reasoning behind your comments, but am not sure I agree on par.

The details may vary by species, but I am not sure that you can define the individual polyps as individual animals in all cases. I could be VERY wrong though.

Invertebrate Zoologists define each individual polyp as an individual animal.
 
Would it then follow that any single polyp from any coral could be cut away and used to form a new colony? I did not think that this was always the case.
 
Let me take that step further as well. Take a big soft sinularia for example. There is MUCH more there than just polyps isnt there? The whole "coral" acts as a whole retracting and expanding. What is the rest of the tissue? If we slice away all of the fuzzy polyps, more will grow. If we cube a section from the center of a stalk (with no exterior tissue) will the cube survive by growing polyps?
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11679586#post11679586 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by KingDiamond
I think that your above example is a good reason to keep in mind that individual poylps are individual animals. When we talk about the age of a "coral" most are refering to the colony as a whole. Polyps on a colony probably die frequently (eaten by predators, killed by other corals ect..) but can be replaced by new members of the colony. When compaired to a social animal like ants you can see that individuals are not as important as the whole. If an individual ant dies in a colony (save the Queen) it really is not missed because of the constant reproduction and growth of the colony. Coals (individual polyps) probably don't live all that long, while the whole colony can live for many many year.

An individual of a species is typically defined as a genetically unique member of that species.

A colony of ants (or other social animal) includes many individuals. They are all very close relatives (all sisters with ants/bees), but they are individuals nonetheless. They are produced by sexual reproduction and are genetically distinct. A coral colony is completely different. New polyps are produced as asexual buds and in most corals the polyps maintain tissue connections to all other polyps. This is all genetically the same tissue and the same individual.

If some polyps are killed--say the colony gets partially buried with sand--some of the tissue that makes up that colony will die but the individual remains. As the coral grows it may resheet over the skeleton, but it may just as easily sheet over rock, over coralline algae, or over other objects.

While it is true that a single polyp can be separated from the rest of the colony to produce a new colony, the same can be done with many other organisms without us considering each little piece a separate individual. We don't consider every leaf of a tree a new individual. We wouldn't say a 100 yr old deciduous tree growing back its leaves in spring is only a few weeks old, though that may be the age of its leaves.

And for that matter, consider that in living things the very atoms that make up our tissues are replaced regularly. If asked I'd say that I am 24 because I was born 24 years ago. If you examine the chemical makeup of my body, however, you'll find that most of the atoms in my body have been part of my body for only a few months. You'll also find that essentially none of the atoms I was born with remain in my body. Does this mean I'm only a few months old? Certainly not!

I will grant you that due to the colonial nature of corals and the propensity of some species to reproduce asexually due to fragmentation muddies the waters. However, in massive corals where fragmentation is uncommon the age of the coral is, by convention, typically thought of as the number of years before present the planula that produced that colony settled. In branching, foliaceous, etc. corals that are more easily fragmented we'd like to apply the same definition, but the practicality of things is such that it is sometimes difficult in the field to determine if adjacent colonies were produced by different sexual recruitment events (two different planulae) or if the colonies resulted from fragmentation of a single colony. Knowing the difference is very important, howver.

For example, we see that throughout its range the genetic diversity of Acropora cervicornis is not terribly high primarily because fragmentation and reattachment is usually more common than sexual reproduction. Thus, on an entire reef there may only be a few individuals (= genetically distinct) though there may be many colonies. This is similar for Acropora palmata in the West Caribbean/Atlantic whereas sexual reproduction is a more common source for new colonies of A. palmata in the East Caribbean.

We might be tempted to call clones of the same organism different individuals, but from a biologically relevant perspective we really shouldn't. We really should use different terms. In fact such terms are typically used. Genetically different individual of corals are called genets. Different colonies that are genetically the same (= the result of fragmentation) are called ramets.

Genetically distinct members of a species are what we usually mean when we say "individual" and probably what we should save this term for. To refer to genetically indistinct members we should probably talk about "ramets" or "clones" because, while separate and living separately, this are by many biologically relevant measures the same "individual."

Chris
 
p.s. And just to be clear, particular polyps within a coral colony often will be as old as the entire colony. For many corals all the polyps remain as part of the colony, even if they are not in an actively growing part of the colony. Think foliaceous or massive Montipora spp. The polyps in the center may not be calcyfying very fast or growing that rapidly as compared to those near the periphery, but those same polyps (which will be among the first polyps formed) may live on as long as the colony is alive. The only reason they would not is if something kills them but not the rest of the colony.
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11680057#post11680057 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by MCsaxmaster
p.s. And just to be clear, particular polyps within a coral colony often will be as old as the entire colony. For many corals all the polyps remain as part of the colony, even if they are not in an actively growing part of the colony. Think foliaceous or massive Montipora spp. The polyps in the center may not be calcyfying very fast or growing that rapidly as compared to those near the periphery, but those same polyps (which will be among the first polyps formed) may live on as long as the colony is alive. The only reason they would not is if something kills them but not the rest of the colony.

True some polyps could be as old as the entire colony. I don't think I said that was impossible. What would be very difficult to determine would be to find out if the polyps that occupied the intermost parts of the colony were actually the originial polyps that grew there. If a file fish ate them and they re-grew it would be very difficult to know if they were re-growth or original polyps. I think that the older the colony is the more unlikly the original polyps are alive. That is just probability. When you look at any form of asexual reprodution the term individual can be "fuzzy", especially if you look at genetics. Frankly, one could make an argument that any creature that reproduced by fission or sexual reproduction were one and the same.

Brad
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11680839#post11680839 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by KingDiamond
True some polyps could be as old as the entire colony. I don't think I said that was impossible. What would be very difficult to determine would be to find out if the polyps that occupied the intermost parts of the colony were actually the originial polyps that grew there. If a file fish ate them and they re-grew it would be very difficult to know if they were re-growth or original polyps. I think that the older the colony is the more unlikly the original polyps are alive. That is just probability. When you look at any form of asexual reprodution the term individual can be "fuzzy", especially if you look at genetics. Frankly, one could make an argument that any creature that reproduced by fission or sexual reproduction were one and the same.

Brad

But by using that argument everytime there is a turnover of tissues you have a new individual. The proteins, fats, minerals, etc. in my body are turned over over the course of months. Am I a knew individual then? Skin cells and hair are constantly shed by we mammals. Should we determine our age by the age of our skin cells or hair? Tissue turnover is not a good basis upon which to determine the age of an organism by the usual meaning of age. We may be very interested in rates of tissue turnover, but for reasons entirely different from determining an organisms age.

Chris
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11679814#post11679814 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by BeanAnimal
Let me take that step further as well. Take a big soft sinularia for example. There is MUCH more there than just polyps isnt there? The whole "coral" acts as a whole retracting and expanding. What is the rest of the tissue? If we slice away all of the fuzzy polyps, more will grow. If we cube a section from the center of a stalk (with no exterior tissue) will the cube survive by growing polyps?

If you cut your hair and set it on the floor will it form a new you? :) Some parts are more important to a colonial species than others. The polyps are individuals the other tissiues associated with the coral (stolon, sclerites ect...) are important but are the result of the colony of individuals growing.

Brad
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11680862#post11680862 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by MCsaxmaster
But by using that argument everytime there is a turnover of tissues you have a new individual. The proteins, fats, minerals, etc. in my body are turned over over the course of months. Am I a knew individual then? Skin cells and hair are constantly shed by we mammals. Should we determine our age by the age of our skin cells or hair? Tissue turnover is not a good basis upon which to determine the age of an organism by the usual meaning of age. We may be very interested in rates of tissue turnover, but for reasons entirely different from determining an organisms age.

Chris

So is it impossible to tell if any polyp in a colony are original? I don't claim to knew much about how the age of coral colonies is determined but wouldn't biologists/geologists look at the age of the skeleton?

Brad
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11680866#post11680866 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by KingDiamond
If you cut your hair and set it on the floor will it form a new you? :) Some parts are more important to a colonial species than others. The polyps are individuals the other tissiues associated with the coral (stolon, sclerites ect...) are important but are the result of the colony of individuals growing.

Brad

Fair enough, but coral tissue tends toward totipotency much more often than the tissue of higher animals. If I cut myself in half I can't grow two of me. If I cut a coral polyp in half I can. If I cut off my arm, or a hand, or a finger I can't grow a new me. With corals it appears that as we hack them into smaller and smaller pieces (tissue explants) we continue to be able to produce viable tissue from the explants. There may be a cut-off on how little tissue is required to grow a new colony, but if so it seems smaller than the pieces into which we have cut corals so far. This is especially true when hacking up coral larvae. For instance, in humans twins cannot form after a certain period of development (I'm not sure exactly where that point is). If the embryo is too developed then the loss of cells will kill it. With coral larvae folks have cut them into smaller and smaller pieces at later and later stages of development and so far it seems as though they just keep on developing.

Chris
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11680932#post11680932 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by MCsaxmaster
Fair enough, but coral tissue tends toward totipotency much more often than the tissue of higher animals. If I cut myself in half I can't grow two of me. If I cut a coral polyp in half I can. If I cut off my arm, or a hand, or a finger I can't grow a new me. With corals it appears that as we hack them into smaller and smaller pieces (tissue explants) we continue to be able to produce viable tissue from the explants. There may be a cut-off on how little tissue is required to grow a new colony, but if so it seems smaller than the pieces into which we have cut corals so far. This is especially true when hacking up coral larvae. For instance, in humans twins cannot form after a certain period of development (I'm not sure exactly where that point is). If the embryo is too developed then the loss of cells will kill it. With coral larvae folks have cut them into smaller and smaller pieces at later and later stages of development and so far it seems as though they just keep on developing.

It depends on what kind of coral polyp your cutting and where you cut it.

Brad

Chris
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11680910#post11680910 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by KingDiamond
So is it impossible to tell if any polyp in a colony are original? I don't claim to knew much about how the age of coral colonies is determined but wouldn't biologists/geologists look at the age of the skeleton?

Brad

That's a toughy. It really depends on the species and coral in question. All corals start as planular larvae that metamorphoses into a single polyp upon settlement. That primary polyp can sometimes be identified in young corals, especially if they have relatively large polyps. For instance, with young Mycetophyllia (and sometimes even older one) you can often tell which was the primary polyp. For something like a big Montastraea faveolata colony that is a few hundred years old...well, good luck. Typically for these corals age is estimated from cores of the skeleton, though this likely gives underestimates since these guys are slow-growing and may take several years just to reach a few centimeters across. For something that is estimated to be 500 yrs old, the difference of 5 years is probably already within the error of the estimate. For something that is estimated to be 10 years old based on linear extension and size being off by 5 years is a pretty large error.
 
If you cut your hair and set it on the floor will it form a new you? Some parts are more important to a colonial species than others. The polyps are individuals the other tissiues associated with the coral (stolon, sclerites ect...) are important but are the result of the colony of individuals growing.
Why is the polyp more important than the coenosarc? If you were to remove all of the polyps from it, it still has undifferentiated cells that could give rise to new polyps. If it's not an individual because it's not a polyp, but it can differentiate into one or many, then what is it? You could theoretically take patches of coenosarc and establish new colonies with them. Wouldn't each of those new corals be an individual?
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11683718#post11683718 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by greenbean36191
You could theoretically take patches of coenosarc and establish new colonies with them.

Actually, not even theoretically--it's been done. Very cool new paper just out in PNAS that I'm waiting on.
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11683718#post11683718 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by greenbean36191
Why is the polyp more important than the coenosarc? If you were to remove all of the polyps from it, it still has undifferentiated cells that could give rise to new polyps. If it's not an individual because it's not a polyp, but it can differentiate into one or many, then what is it? You could theoretically take patches of coenosarc and establish new colonies with them. Wouldn't each of those new corals be an individual?

I think what we have to remember is that the whole animal in question is a coral. Secondly, the regeneration abilities of Anthozoans is pretty amazing. I think that the polyp is more important just because it came first. When a planula lavae forms a coral it starts with a single polyp. You can cut flat worms just about anywhere and form a new flat worm but I guess you need a flat worm to cut to get a part of a flat worm. You need at least one polyp or an established colony of coral to get a cutting of coenosarc.

Brad
 
Obviously I'm playing devil's advocate a little bit, and I do understand the argument and agree with your answer. However, I don't really subscribe to the polyp-as-an-individual school of thought mostly because it's not very practical in the real world. When we work with corals, people are almost always looking at the effects on colonies as a whole rather than at individual polyps within colonies. The polyps of a colony are identical genetically, have a common skeleton, nerve net, tissue layers, share nutrients and sometimes have interconnected guts. In many species there's no clear demarcation between polyps, so any dividing line you make between them is pretty much arbitrary. Besides as a teaching tool in invert textbooks IMO there's little reason to think of polyps as individuals rather than units of a larger individual.
 
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