lighting vs cyano

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7987485#post7987485 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Dag
Lots of smart people have said phosphate is a factor. What's your basis for this statement?

OK, I think I need to retract my previous comments about phosphate because they were improperly worded.

Nitrogen is the major limiting nutrient but phosphorus can be a limiting nutrient in the sense that nitrogen fixation can be limited by phosphorus availability. In fact, even iron can be a limiting factor since iron is a major component of ferredoxin, one of the primary constituents of Photosystem I, which provides energy for N2 fixation.

So eliminating phosphorus can indirectly limit cyanobacteria.
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7990459#post7990459 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by hahnmeister
Perhaps the spectrums being tested with what you saw didnt have a wide range PAR meter available... so it wasnt covered.

By definition, PAR (Photosynthetically Active Radiation), is the spectral range of solar light from 400 to 700 nanometers. That chart covered 400-700 nm.
 
not exactly... there are two PAR scales, one with only visible light... 400-700nm, and another 'extended range' that includes the UV and IR bands (200nm to 1000nm, or sometimes 350-800, but exact ranges vary with the equipment). Depending on the equipment you use, you usually only have access to the visible range, and so the existance of the outer ranges may not be taken into consideration at all... this leaves the results somewhat flawed because of the amount of IR present isnt even taken into account.
 
"Other photosynthetic organisms, such as cyanobacteria (formerly known as blue-green algae) and red algae, have additional pigments called phycobilins that are red or blue and that absorb the colors of visible light that are not effectively absorbed by chlorophyll and carotenoids. Yet other organisms, such as the purple and green bacteria (which, by the way, look fairly brown under many growth conditions), contain bacteriochlorophyll that absorbs in the infrared, in addition to in the blue part of the spectrum."

"These bacteria efficiently use infrared light for photosynthesis. Infrared is light with wavelengths above 700 nm that cannot be seen by the human eye; some bacterial species can use infrared light with wavelengths of up to 1000 nm"

http://www.zi.ku.dk/mkuhl/pages/PDF/Kuhl_et_al_2005.pdf#search='infrared%20light%20cyanobacteria'

The better and more recent tests on cyanobacteria that I have seen include narrow band exposure of reef conditions to IR/760nm+ sources and seen the production of cyanobacteria or red-blue algae.

From first hand exerience, I can tell you that a couple of my tanks have had cyano problems that were quickly dealt with upon simply swapping out the old bulb for a new one. I would have an aqualine 10,000K DE bulb and tons of blue-green algae... little blackish-green-blue films and fuzz covering everything. Then, I would put in a new 20,000K bulb for a few weeks... it went away just like that.

I think its a good place to start anyways... its always a good idea to have a set of backup bulbs on hand (in case one blows out, goes wonky, you have an algae bloom, etc). You can simply swap in the new bulb for a few weeks... if things get better... there you go.
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7973739#post7973739 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Ninong
Yes, there are other factors besides nitrogen, but phosphate isn't one of them.

Cyanobacteria are photosynthetic bacteria that are nitrogen limited. They are unique organisms in that they can perform both nitrogen fixation and oxygenic photosynthesis.


As you said,cyno can fix nitrogen.Since air is somewhere around 78% nitrogen,how then could it be limited?IMO it would be better to control the nutrient Po4 by limitation.
I agree that you should change bulbs on a regular basis,But IMO cnyo can grow even with new lights if your Po4 is high.
The different chemicals thats listed with the wave lengths,only tell you what color the cyno is and what light they prefer.Not that they won't grow in new light.
 
Yeah, but you are taking away a huge advantage that they have by getting rid of the IR. Im just telling you from personal experience... it works.
 
I'm not saying,that changing lights won't help.It does sometimes.
I was questioning the nitrate statement Ninong had made.In the plant section here at RC we dose Kn03 when cyno starts.But thats only for tanks with alot of macros/plants.
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7992190#post7992190 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by 3D-Reef
As you said,cyno can fix nitrogen.Since air is somewhere around 78% nitrogen,how then could it be limited?
I thought we were talking about marine cyanobacteria? Seawater is not 78% nitrogen. I don't know of any reef tank that is 78% nitrogen.

The different chemicals thats listed with the wave lengths,only tell you what color the cyno is and what light they prefer.
Those "different chemicals" are called assessory pigments and yes, they do tell you exactly which light they prefer.
 
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<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7992482#post7992482 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Ninong
I thought we were talking about marine cyanobacteria? Seawater is not 78% nitrogen. I don't know of any reef tank that is 78% nitrogen.


Your right,sea water isn't 78% nitrogen,but the atmosphere(air) that it exchanges gases with is.Therefore the nitrogen is exchanged as well.So the marine cyanobacteria can fix and use this source of nitrogen.Fixing is the convertion of nitrogen back to nitrate or ammonia.Since air is unlimited,the nitrogen would be unlimited in this case.

Where and what form does cyano grow first?Most of the time it's on the sand first as a film...why?...Because of the way we are taught to use kalk to precipitate Po4.Precipitating to where?Most of the time to caco3(sand/LR),also to GFO's.Unless the caco3 or GFO's are removed from the tank,IT'S STILL THERE building up.

IMO Because of the way it grows,in a film,it can liberate the Po4 thats built up in the sand bed.For instance, if you take a piece of plastic wrap(by the way I'm not saying to really do this)and put it over your sand bed. What would happen?The sand bed would be come anoxic,this lowers the Ph thereby releasing the Po4 for the bac' to dine at their pleasure.Also with an anoxic condition comes hydrogen sulfide bac' lowering the Ph even futher releasing more Po4.The cyano grows in a film over the sand in order to do the same thing as the plastic wrap.To get the Po4 from the DSB.
 
Hmmm... This is a topic that continually comes up.

Phosphate removers work for some.

Changing bulbs works for some.

Water moverment changes work for some.

The most likely source of cyanobacteria control is nurtient limitation. Given that, ask yourself the question, which nutrient is the easiest or most effective and most practical to control?

It is my understanding that Nitrogen and phosphate are major nutrient requirements for marine algaes. This appears to extend to cyanobacteria. There are other nutrients required, but in vastly smaller quantities.

There have been open ocean experiments done to determine the absolute concentrations at which phosphate and nitrate limit microalgae growth. Those concentrations are a factor of at least 10 lower than we can measure on hobby test kits. You can get zero readings on your test kits and still not be nutrient limited for single celled algaes. I think this principle extends to cyanobacteria as it is a single celled photosynthetic organism.

As mentioned earlier more nitrogen is required than phoaphate; approximately 16 times more (redfield ratio). Yes, cyanobacteria can use other sources of nitrogen than NH3 and NH4, but it still needs 16 molecules of nitrogen for every molecule of phosphate.

So is it easier to reduce phosphate to less than one molecule for every 15 molecules of nitrogen or to reduce nitrogen to less than 15 molecules for every one molecule of phosphate?

How do you reduce a nutient in your tank? There are 4 choices that I know of: dilution (water changes), adsorbtion (phosphate sponges, protien skimmers...), absobtion (uptake by another organism), reduction.

Given the low levels of nitrates and phosphates needed by cyanobacteria, and the levels at which they are continually added to our tanks by feeding, dilution is not a practical solution.

I know of no chemical that adsorbs nitrogen in its various forms and phosphate adsorbtion does not work for everyone. I suspect that this is because so little phosphate is required by sincle cell photosynthetic organisms relative to rates of addition and what can be adsorbed.

Reduction is what happens in our live rock and sand beds when bacteria break the bonds in molecules to use one molecule and release the others as a byproduct. For sandbeds the released molecule is nitrogen (hmm... cyano can fix nitrogen...). This is one of the main reasons given for using live rock and sand beds in our tanks.

Sand beds and live rock also support all manner of organisms that consume detritus and lock up nutrients in the form of living flesh. I will leave this can of worms at this point.

That leaves us with what I think is the best form of absorbtion, other algae: macro algae. Macro algae, being much larger than single celled organisms, suck up a LOT more nutrients than said single celled organisms (like cyano bacteria). According to Plantbrain, when growing properly, they also suck them up a lot faster (this is improtant!). This is the reason a lot of folks are adding refugiums. They are a great source of nutrient absobtion and export.

This is also what has worked for me to control cyano in my tank. As long as my macros are growing well, there is very little cyano in my tank. I do not pretend to understand the entire story here, and I encourage everyone to find and read Plantbrains posts in the Marine Plants forum. The short story seems to be that if your macros are growing well, they outcompete (nutrient limit) the cyano. The limiting nutrient is nitrogen in the form of NH3 and NH4.

This isn't the end of the absorbtion story though. What a lot of folks don't realize is that macros also need a lot more available nitrogen (and phophate) to keep growing. Your macro algae can become nutrient limited as well. Once it stops growing well, nutrients again become available for cyano growth. Plantbrains solution?

Dose nitrates (and possibly phosphates). :eek1: :eek1: Yep, dose nitrates to keep your macros growing well and they will nutrient limit the cyano.

I have done this repeatably in my tank. Rather than dosing continually as plantbrain does, I wait for the cyano to start to bloom as a sign that the macros are nutrient limited and then I dose calcium nitrate to kick start the macros. I have done this 5 or 6 times now (every couple of months??) and each time, the cyano mostly dissapears within 3-4 days.

I say mostly because I have never completely eliminated the cyano. it shows up as small bits here and there, but nothing very noticable. I have no heavy mats growing anywhere.

Note: I have also needed to dose phosphates on one occasion to kick start my macros.

I should mention that since I keep seahorses, I have lots of macros in my main tank as well but this is not an issue for me. For those who want to keep an algae free reef, you would need good herbivours to manage macros in the main tank.

OK, I didn't intend to get so long winded, but what we really have here is a toolkit for managing cyanobacteria. Pick and choose what works for you. If one thing does not work, pick up another tool and try it.

Fred
 
My problem is that my macroalgae stopped growing well. I don't like your solution. Maybe there's another ... Maybe the problem is iron ...
 
Fredfish,You stated that Really Well.:thumbsup:

Has anyone tried to compare the different methods of absorbtion as far as C/N/P goes?
Something like this?;
Bacteria prefer .....DOC/No3/Po43-
Macro's prefer.....Co2/No3/Po43-,Po4+
Cyano prefer.....DOC/N2/Po43-,Po4+
 
Thanks 3D-Reef. I do not know if anyone has compared the three. I don't think it really matters when comparing cyano to macros as it applies to our tanks.

We can nutrient limit our tanks enough to stop macros from growing, but not enough to stop cyano from growing. If the cyano has no competition whats it gonna do?

I read a really interesting article by Ron Schemik a while back. The main thrust of the article was that organisms evolve to avoid competing with each other. Each organism in a given environment has slightly different requirements that allow it to continue to survive.

What we do in our glass cages is create an artificial environment that is continually out of ballance and then look for 'desirable' organisms to out-compete 'undesirable' ones to keep things in ballance. It just dosn't work very well most of the time. Or, if it works, its not in the way we expected. Just look at what has happened with most terrestrial species introductions in the last 150 years.

Fred
 
my green cyano

my green cyano

Bye the way, my cyano problem is mostly green. When it first began (about 2 months ago) it was mostly red, but as time goes by it has become almost entirely green. Don't know if that helps but I keep hearing people refer to different varieties of cyano. Also, any ideas on differences between the two color variations from where you all sit? This has turned into an interesting thread to watch!
Bye the way I tried a product called Red slime control (by blue life USA) about a week ago. It seemed to knock it down a bit but then several days later it came back, mostly. I only tried it at about 3/4 of reccommended dosage, and will try the full dose again soon. This product is a anti microbacterial. I stopped the skimmer for two days and when I turned it back on it went nuts. I was also told to have a powerhead breaking the water surface because the dead cyano may gather on the top and cause less o2 exchange. Not sure but I did as ordered like a good boy.
Keep the good stuff coming...BB
 
Using antibiotics for half the time or at half the recommended dosage will only do to your cyano problem what it does to people. Make resistant strains that will not respond to future treatment. Thats why your Doc always says "make sure you take all of it!" The stuff that was left was a bit more resitant than the stuff that died right away. It will be harder to kill next time.
 
Excuse me for my horrible english.
In my opinion, the problem with cyanobacteria becomes from wrong understunding. Many acuarist atacs cyanobacteria like algae, but cyanobacteria is just fotosintetyc bacteria.
Cyano can use atmospheric nitrogen, and produce fosfate by fosfatase themselves. Also is able to use poor and powerfull ligthing to grow.
We must attack cyanobacteria promoting competitive bacterias. One of the best, but long way, is feedeng acuarium with phytopláncton like Tetraselmis and some diatomea.
Tetraselmis sp, T. suecia, T. chuii are inhibitors to cianobacterias (possible by acid fatts) and promotes other bacterias (anaerobics) to make competition for organic nutrients in acuarium.
Antibiotics is not solution, it´s just oposite way to resolve the problem. The real solution is a very powerfull bacterial population and keep acuarium free from detritus.
 
Re: my green cyano

Re: my green cyano

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8022478#post8022478 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Brad Black
Bye the way, my cyano problem is mostly green. When it first began (about 2 months ago) it was mostly red, but as time goes by it has become almost entirely green. Don't know if that helps but I keep hearing people refer to different varieties of cyano. Also, any ideas on differences between the two color variations from where you all sit?


It's not unusual to have CB change colors.It can change from red to blue green to black or vise versa.It depends on how many accessory pigments are available compared to the different wavelenths.Thats why My answer on lighting was, changing bulbs does work sometimes.If you have two or more AP's available it will just morph to an other color.
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8025290#post8025290 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by joanxavier
Excuse me for my horrible english.
We must attack cyanobacteria promoting competitive bacterias. One of the best, but long way, is feedeng acuarium with phytopláncton like Tetraselmis and some diatomea.
Tetraselmis sp, T. suecia, T. chuii are inhibitors to cianobacterias (possible by acid fatts) and promotes other bacterias (anaerobics) to make competition for organic nutrients in acuarium.
Antibiotics is not solution, it´s just oposite way to resolve the problem. The real solution is a very powerfull bacterial population and keep acuarium free from detritus.

Your english is good enough for Me.And I agree that slowing down the bac' is just the opposite of whats needed.
The question is do these bac' naturally grow in our systems or would you have to buy a culture somewhere?
 
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