Lionfish Breeding In Atlantic Now?
- Thread starter stevebydac
- Start date
LauraCline
New member
I've also read several articles about this, I believe the popular opinion is that they have been released by ship ballasts and irresponsible aquariasts. I bet more than one ended up in the Atlantic when it got to big for someone's 55 gallon.
I believe the most logical way these fish may be found in the atlantic is because the get caught in the gulf stream which extends all the way along the north coast. Even though the gulf stream is far off the coast when upwelling occurs in the summer these fish may be pushed into bays and estuaries.
Wolverine
Premium Member
Unfortunately I think the latter is the more common reason. The big problem is that it gives the anti-aquarium hobby groups one more piece of ammunition.
And this would get them all the way from the Indo-Pacific? If this were the case, why wouldn't they already have been endemic? Why wouldn't we be seeing this with animals that are unpopular in the trade?
Dave
Mad Scientist
Premium Member
I agree - I think ship's ballasts are to blame. It's a huge problem though as these guys are nailing native fish - throwing off the whole balance and such.
I know a number of people that have seen them on NC and NY wrecks.
anydarnthing
New member
I think if you research this you'll find that usually only invert's are transported in ships bilges. Most ships bilge pumps are screened so only invert larva are sucked in, and do you truelly believe a lionfish is going to survive a 1-3 month cruise from the the Indo-Pacific to the Atlantic off the coast of the US in a dark tank with no oxygen replenishing? Most freighters cruise at 10-20kts so its going to be a slow trip I know lions can go awhile without food but a month or more? Plus ships only intake water in the bilge when they have no cargo in the holds and in this economy a unloaded ship is drain on the bottom-line so you'll rarely see a ship unloaded. I think its someone who bought a lion and found out it gets huge and starts eating the other fish in the tank that the owner dumps him in the ocean. I you look it up you'll see people are mostly responsible for introducing foreign species...rabbits(Australia), rats(everywhere), mongoose(Hawaii), and many more including a breeding colony of Monk Parrots in most major US cities from birds escaping the pet trade(sound familiar?). I have seen bilge water, and if you think a fish that dies if ammonia get above 1-5ppm is going to survive for months in nasty black oily bilge-water then you need some more science classes.
Wolverine
Premium Member
Whether or not the bulk of the blame lies with the hobby or with shipping is semi-irrelevant.
The fact is, we're an easier target than the shipping industry. For one thing, no matter how big the hobby becomes, we will never have the kind of lobbying power to compare with shipping. More importantly, look at it from outside the hobby. If they come in on ships, it's an accidently by-product of what they do. If it's from us, it's from someone doing something stupid: intentionally releasing animals into a non-native setting.
We know for a fact that people in the hobby release animals into the wrong oceans. That's been discussed plenty here on RC (involving the people who admit to releasing the animals). It only takes two survivors to make a breeding population, and I'm sure many more than that have been released around the big cities on the coasts. I wouldn't be surprised if the majority of "freed" animals are released at a few choice spots, where someone knows there is healthy reef. I know I would look for that if I were taking this approach.
Dave
The fact is, we're an easier target than the shipping industry. For one thing, no matter how big the hobby becomes, we will never have the kind of lobbying power to compare with shipping. More importantly, look at it from outside the hobby. If they come in on ships, it's an accidently by-product of what they do. If it's from us, it's from someone doing something stupid: intentionally releasing animals into a non-native setting.
We know for a fact that people in the hobby release animals into the wrong oceans. That's been discussed plenty here on RC (involving the people who admit to releasing the animals). It only takes two survivors to make a breeding population, and I'm sure many more than that have been released around the big cities on the coasts. I wouldn't be surprised if the majority of "freed" animals are released at a few choice spots, where someone knows there is healthy reef. I know I would look for that if I were taking this approach.
Dave
Mad Scientist
Premium Member
I think both theories have some merit, but I think your post is way, way too strong......
http://csmonitor.com/2002/0322/p02s01-usgn.html
From the article:
"Related to this theory is the ballast-water concept, in which larvae or juvenile fish are trapped in ships moving from the Indo-Pacific to the East Coast and are then released into local waters when the ballast water is pumped out.
Donald Hoss, director of the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration's Beaufort lab in North Carolina, says many species have been introduced to foreign ecosystems in this manner"
Wolverine
Premium Member
Be wary about using information from newspaper articles. If you talk to anyone who's been quoted in a newspaper more than a couple of times, you'll find that what they say and what ends up in the paper are often very, very different. It's even worse in a situation like this where it's not even claimed to be a direct quote from the person. The guy could have said anything from "we think a few species have been introduced" to "we have proof that thousands have been introduced". Reporters hear what they want to hear, and sometimes it has no relation to what was actually said.
Dave
anydarnthing
New member
I'm not trying to come on strong since I was in the Navy and have seen bilge water and the Navy is a lot cleaner then most commercial freighters. I just don't see a lion surviving, I can see some other fish larva surviving but not lions since my Lions eyes start turning cloudy when ammonia becomes detectable in my tank. I know zebra mussel amd other bivalves have been transported this way but never heard of a fish as large and sensitive as a lion being transported in this manner. Also I think that most copper treatments discourage the use of copper in treating a lion and since seawater is corrosive and most owners of the ship don't want it to rust away they paint bilges with special heavy metal paints and place "sacrificial anodes" in the bilges which are usually made from copper based alloys.
zemuron114
In Memoriam
They could do a mass lion collection campaign and try to get the numbers down. Are there any natural predators in the atlantic that eat lions??
stevebydac
New member
This is similar to the problem faced on land with pythons, many of whom are now breeding in the southern US, particularly in swampy regions like the Everglades. The pythons are probably an even bigger problem, as they are top predators, rivalled probably only by crocs and cougars in those areas.
thor32766
New member
I have personally talked to the fish and game people here in florida, because they are my favorite fish. Beautiful. One of their main biologist, suggested hurricane andrew was a culprit for the lions appearing in the atlantic. They did research and found out literally hundreds of houses that sat on the coast had huge aquariums with a large number, having lionfish. They believed when the tides came in, the houses and aquariums were destroyed and out went the lions. He also said they had no reports of the lions until after the hurricane. i know it sounds crazy that is just one of their main theories for now.
Just thought i would share
Just thought i would share
Very interesting. Sounds like the most likely possibility.
As far as bilge water from ships is goes it is possible. Most marine fish have planktonic larva. These larva probally feed on other plankton which of course is also in the ship's water.
Although unlikely I think aquarist could also be to blame. If the first lion fish was released in 1970 then its been about 35 years of release. While it is unlikely that these fish are still alive they probally were around 10 years ago. Therefore up to 10 years ago the 1st released lion could breed with other released individuals. Also remember that as the marine hobbie increases in poplarity so does the number of released fish. This means each year the gene pool expands because new individuals are released and these new fish can also breed with our lion released in 1970. Plus as the years go by it is more and more likely that our first lion will encounter a mate. Any way food for thought
I think there is an upside you folks have missed. The aquarium industry now has a new source for lions. This means you could take every last one of these invaders and not effect the native population of their natural range. In other words you could preserve the population in say Tahiti by taking all of the lions off of Purto Rico. Plus the more lions you take the healther the environment becomes. It not a great situation, but it does have a silver lining.
