lionfish lockjaw?

kaiboshi

kaiboshi

New member
One of my tanks is a 65 that houses a marine betta, antennata lion and radiata lion. I'm concerned about my anennata but I don't know whether what I'm observing is lockjaw or intimidation. The betta is ~5", radiata is ~4" and the antennata is ~2". I only fed krill to the two lions once or twice while in QT and then I read about it causing lockjaw and stopped. Now I feed mostly PE mysis and freeze dried plankton (I think that's what it's called). I've tried cut shrimp, squid and octopus but the group seems to prefer mysis.

All of the fish eat. The betta and radiata HOG down the mysis like you wouldn't believe. The antennata is very timid about feeding it seems. It will chase down numerous pieces of mysis and sit within striking distance and in striking posture and then either give up or strike halfway. Sometimes it manages a full strike but doesn't seem to be able to get the whole mysis shrimp in it's mouth and it swims around for a short while with the shrimp hanging out then spits it out completely. Other times when it does a full strike it takes the whole mysis shrimp and eats it normally.

I noticed that sometimes when it does the half strike and misses it will try to yawn or stretch its mouth out and it doesn't seem to be able to go nearly as far as my radiata can stretch it's mouth.

In terms of the feeding and behavioral dynamic everyone gets along quite well. The only thing I would note is that the antennata is somewhat leary of the radiata when the radiata goes chasing after a piece of food that is right near the antennata. Otherwise they seem to ignore one another to a point that is almost dangerous. The antennata & betta swim in between and amongst the pectoral rays of the radiata like it's nothing. I know the pectoral rays aren't spines or anything but it is a little close for comfort for me. Betta kabob is just what I need =]


ANYWAY, what do you guys think? Does it sound like lockjaw or is the fish just timid?
 
Our antennata sometimes does a weird mouth thing too, altho not so often now that it isn't a newby. We were concerned at first because we had never seen a lion behave like it, but we actually think it may be a kind of "presentation" to a perceived threat.

I know Renee shot a vid of it, but I can't seem to locate it ATM...I'll ask her where it's filed.

One thing I can say is that we have some lions that will eat every time off the stick, but won't necessarily feed "free-floating" food from the water column. In fact, this is the case with our antennata.

As you suspect, it's also possible that the antennata is feeling a bit nervous since it's the smallest fish in the tank. I'd try target feeding it (use a "stealth stick") and also be sure to offer it small food items (stay no larger than about its eye size), as I've seen lions that are intimidated by large pieces of food.

HTH
 
The antennata agressively pursues food larger than it's eye even though it has the choice to go for smaller stuff.

However...

Tonight the antennata exhibited what I fear is a killer blow for the lockjaw case. It was trying to eat and it's jaw wasn't opening. Then when it finally did open it's jaws they would get somewhat stuck and it shook it's head like a large mouthed bass does when it tries to shake a hook. I've never seen any of my aquarium fish do this before. Full head shaking and not just once but three times it's jaw got stuck during feeding.

So what do you think, are we looking at lockjaw or something else?

If lockjaw is the case, is there a cure or am I stuck euthanizing the poor little guy?
 
I know that once a fish gets lockjaw, they become "predisposed" to getting it again. I also know that it's typically a result of nutritional issues, altho from your reports, it doesn't seem like you're at fault there.

To be honest, I'm at a loss, but fish illnesses aren't my forte either.

Maybe Frank Marini or one of the other scorp nuts has more insight.
 
I didn't hear them advising using an anesthetic, but I'd definitely give the fish a dose of MS-222 (finquel) before tube feeding it.
 
Yea the fish seemed calm while it was out and as soon as it hit the water it went back to normal. Maybe its just one well trained lion lol
 
Yikes Joe... Looks like you might be tube feeding.

In Frank's book it calls for a feeding equal to 3% of the body weight or just enough to cause a slight distension of the belly.
 
tube feeding, wonderful =]

With a fish the size in the video I don't think I would have an issue to be honest but my lion is like 2". I'm afraid I'd pop his little belly. Ugh, I know I'm capable but the whole thing makes me feel pretty bad for the little guy.

OK. Here's a question. This lion's diet was fine to begin with so how am I supposed to fix the issue? I mean I can tube feed him what I've been feeding him but he still developed the problem regardless. Thoughts?
 
You might want to start adding B12 and I like to add vitamin C to build up their immunity while they are fighting this. The B12 is a recommendation from Kelly Jedlicki, also known as the Puffer Queen. Do a search on her.

There are different thoughts as to why this happens. Not all feel it is necessarily krill related.
 
It's dumb question time. Where exactly can you get individual vitamins like you're talking about? What about the sedative?

How long does it typically take to correct lockjaw?
 
The sedative is typically available thru LFS or etailers. I know that Dan over at Seahorse Source carries it (click link). It's not cheap, but good to have around. You can use clove oil (health food store) to anesthetize the fish too, but that's a bit tougher, as I don't know the dosage for a lion, altho we use it on SH at times (I suspect a small lion may be "close" to a large SH). It can also be used for euthanasia.

Here's a cut-n-paste of the "clove oil" part:

Clove oil. This is really great stuff. You *have* to try some. Place a few drops on your tongue or on your finger and taste. Loverly.....

Right - for the seahorse, you want to add a single drop into a 500ml bowl of seawater. Tank water is fine. You are going to throw it away afterwards so it is not really important. Some seahorses require two drops of the oil per 500ml water. This really depends on the seahorse. If is is half dead anyway, it will not struggle uch. If it is feisty, it may require more drops. I would never exceed 4 drops per 500ml

Once you add the drop/s, you will see it is like an oil droplet on the water.

Surprise number one - Clove oil is an oil!

Surprise number two, if you mix it in the water, it DOES mix in the seawater. Just what we want.

Surprise number three: I lied about the clove oil taste. it is disgusting, it stays on your breath all day and makes your mouth numb. Horrid stuff.

Place 'frisky' the seahorse into the bowl. The clove oil in the water quickly subdues the seahorse, and he gets sleeeeeeee.....

The next step ( step 9 ) must be QUICK. The seahorse is actually dying right now! Respiration is down, metabolic rate is down, this is NOT a good place to be with a sick seahorse.

If the worst happens, and the seahorse actually dies right now, console yourself with the idea you put it to sleep peacefully, rather than letting it suffer.


The vitamins can be gotten at any health food or drug store. If you can find liquid, all the better (Renee may get that online). Renee can comment on the vitamins a bit more.
 
I buy quality human grade vitamins and crush them up and dissolve them in water. The vitamin C I buy online. Around here it is sitting on the shelves forever, you don't want that. Online stores like Liveaquaria will go through their stock quicker, so it's fresher and more potent. I use Vitamarin-C from Brightwell Aquatics.

The "studies" have been on B12. It's suppose to be an appetite stimulant. I have zero info backing my practice up, but I use the whole B complex. I've had three fish come off of hunger strikes after I started the B complex and Vitamin C. Coincidence? I don't know.

I now add it to the tanks of new acquisitions 100% of the time, periodically "just because" and then with any signs of illness. I have only ever added the B Complex with PraziPro. I have no idea if it interacts with any other common treatments (just saying...). I've added the Vitamin C to Prazi and Furan-2.
 
Here's another question: are broader spectrum tissue soluble vitamins like vitachem worth a try versus specific vitamin soaks like vitamarin-c and selcon?


Last night while feeding I confirmed something I suspected. There is some kind of "bump" on the lions throat area. It's kind of hard to describe. On the bottom of his head between the gill plates there is a protruding area that doesn't look normal. I guess I'll have to dig up my camera if this is something unheard of.
 
Last edited:
I'm not sure what you mean by tissue soluble. Vitamarine is a liquid I put into the tank itself. Selcon has to be taken orally. I like to give good doses of vitamin C. You wouldn't be able to get to those levels if you would use a broad vitamin. You're not going to OD a fish on vitamin C, but you can if you give them too much of some of the other fat soluble vitamins.

But of course, this is what works for me, so I roll with it. I'm sure others have some advice to give on what works for them.

Have you tried live?
 
I haven't fed my lions live food since they were in QT when I fed them ghost shrimp.

I think I'm going to set up a hospital tank for my antennata tonight and pick up some vitamarin-c, vitachem and selcon and see what I can manage.


Here is a thought that just ocurred to me. Some of the decor in this particular tank is freshwater stuff. I didn't have enough LR when I made the tank so I used old stuff I had and pursued a goofy theme that frankly is embarassing compared to the tanks you guys have. My thought was that the fish would enjoy structure more than a barren tank but it's possible that this may have been a big mistake. Is it possible that the freshwater decor may be unsafe for saltwater and leeching some kinda chemicals that would cause something like my lion is experiencing? The hospital tank may solve more issues than I originally thought...
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Similar threads

A
Aggressive fish competition
Replies
2
Views
109
AidanCfish
A
A
First SPS coral. Is this bleaching?
Replies
6
Views
592
apavlik2
A
B
Ritteri Swollen Mouth
Replies
8
Views
763
Bakeman
B
M
Zoas and gsp not growing but anemones and leathers are happy and growing fast.
Replies
4
Views
985
griss
griss
R
LFS can order "red" or "blue" peacock mantis?
Replies
2
Views
152
game misconduct
G
Back
Top