Liquid GFO...

[jason2459]

The links are scientific links in romanian language but im sure you could find them in english too if you google.My job is to test the water,air and soil ,then take actions to protect the enviroment, so i know what im talking .An easy experiment with GFO vs kalk vs the CaCO3 bonding PO4 abilityes would reveal the truth but i dont have time for this.

You must also make sure the tests apply to aquarium use. If limewater is an effective method and more so than GFO it must be at very unsafe levels for an aquarium. I do not know or have not seen any practical tests to show calcium hydroxide working to bind PO4. Theory is there.

So, I would love to see those links even if in another language and even if not practical for an aquarium. Formulas are universal and google can translate the rest well enough.

 

[2smokes]

Ive tryed to find thoose informations in romanian and to put an underline under the text where it was stated that calcium is the main po4 binder in water with ph above 7 and iron oxide is the main po4 binder in water with lower than 7 ph .But i cant find the links that easy,theyr in a book and takes me a lot of time to find the exact paragraphs.GFO also works well in saltwater but it has best propertyes in freshwater that has lower than 7 ph.And calcium binds phosphate also in fresh water like it does in saltwater but if the freshwater has bigger than 7 PH.You can check for yourself to find that GFO is intended to treat freshwater mainly and not saltwater but it was adopted in the hobby because it works to a certain extent.GFO will not bind the po4 that is leaked from a dry rock because gfo doesnt deposit where the po4 is, like calcium does.So even if you use GFO ,if you add dry rock to your tank it will still leach po4 and get covered in cyano until the calcium from the water cements the PO4 from the rock.

 

[jason2459]

Links is fine. No underlining or copy pasting sections is necessary. I would like to read to get full context.

 

[jason2459]

I have suffered from leaching PO4 from pukani dry rock when that product was first introduced and before it became common knowledge it leached PO4 like crazy.

If I were to do it again I would soak in bleach to help dissolve organics on it. Rinse, power wash and scrub , and rinse again. Then soak in a muriatic acid bath to strip that outer layer to help reduce the leaching PO4.

As it was I already posted the main method that worked best IMO. LaCL3 to GFO to Carbon dosing and algae harvesting.

 

[2smokes]

I have suffered from leaching PO4 from pukani dry rock when that product was first introduced and before it became common knowledge it leached PO4 like crazy.

If I were to do it again I would soak in bleach to help dissolve organics on it. Rinse, power wash and scrub , and rinse again. Then soak in a muriatic acid bath to strip that outer layer to help reduce the leaching PO4.

As it was I already posted the main method that worked best IMO. LaCL3 to GFO to Carbon dosing and algae harvesting.

The phosphates that are leaking from the dry rock arent from the decomposition of the live organisms.Thoose are inorganic phosphates that deposited on the rock ,,glued,, by calcium.You can wash a rock in acid and bake it but it will still leak phosphates until the calcium from the water covers them.LaCl sounds like an eficient method to bind po4 but dangerous, and after ive read this article im convinced ive poured LaCl in the swimming pool after each time it rains.LaCl is used in medicine to bind po4 but theres also used calcium to do the same job.http://www.coralmagazine-us.com/content/foiling-phosphate

 

[bertoni]

As long as we agree that GFO works well in saltwater, we can leave the details of fresh water treatment for another forum. Calcium can't bind phosphate in the water column of a saltwater aquarium unless the pH is raised in some manner:

http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2005-01/rhf/index.htm#15

GFO obviously can and has bound a lot of phosphate, even in tanks with live rock that is leaching.

 

[2smokes]

As long as we agree that GFO works well in saltwater, we can leave the details of fresh water treatment for another forum. Calcium can't bind phosphate in the water column of a saltwater aquarium unless the pH is raised in some manner:

http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2005-01/rhf/index.htm#15

GFO obviously can and has bound a lot of phosphate, even in tanks with live rock that is leaching.

Randy Holmes Farley is the greatest chemist in the hobby but even him didnt studdyed too well how calcium reacts with the phosphates.It even stated in that article that a lot is unknown about calcium and phosphates in salt water aquarium hobby and he guessed(his assumption was good)that calcium bonds the phosphates that are leaking from dead rock.Ive used ,,cement,, word to describe it but ,,cementing,, is actually Randy Holmes Farley idea.He make first use of that word. I found a link in english language about the calcium phosphate binding propertyes.This is true scientific study.In an experiment ,calcium carbonate binded 70 percent of the phosphates in the water.Now keep in mind that calcium carbonate isnt soluble in the water,it needs to be disolved by co2 to react efficiently with phosphates .I believe there was a lot of co2 in the water where they made the tests.They consider using it to save somme areas from eutrofization. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2810262/

 

[bertoni]

That article describes using calcium carbonate to bind phosphate by dissolving the calcium carbonate, which will happen in fresh water, but not in saltwater. They even refer to adding acid to increase the amount of calcium carbonate that can be dissolved.

 

[2smokes]

That article describes using calcium carbonate to bind phosphate by dissolving the calcium carbonate, which will happen in fresh water, but not in saltwater. They even refer to adding acid to increase the amount of calcium carbonate that can be dissolved.

Calcium carbonate doesnt dissolve neyther in fresh water or saltwater.It has verry little solubility but when acid is added it will disolve.I live cloose to somme calcium carbonate mountains.They disolve a litle when it rains but thats because of acid rain.Normal fresh water doesnt dissolve it in the absence of co2 or of somme acid.CaOH and CaCl in my opinion are the best of the best in binding phosphates in saltwater.GFO and aluminium oxide granules falls on second place.LaCl is to treat swimming pools.

 

[jason2459]

The phosphates that are leaking from the dry rock arent from the decomposition of the live organisms.Thoose are inorganic phosphates that deposited on the rock ,,glued,, by calcium.You can wash a rock in acid and bake it but it will still leak phosphates until the calcium from the water covers them.LaCl sounds like an eficient method to bind po4 but dangerous, and after ive read this article im convinced ive poured LaCl in the swimming pool after each time it rains.LaCl is used in medicine to bind po4 but theres also used calcium to do the same job.http://www.coralmagazine-us.com/content/foiling-phosphate

The organics on the rock can release nutrients. The bleach will help break those down. The HCL bath will help strip the outer layers with bound PO4.

Lanthanum Chloride does have its risks but can be dosed safely with precautions. However, some dose with impunity and have had no issues, Melev.

LaCL3 safety concerns
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2544400

Calcium carbonate doesnt dissolve neyther in fresh water or saltwater.It has verry little solubility but when acid is added it will disolve.I live cloose to somme calcium carbonate mountains.They disolve a litle when it rains but thats because of acid rain.Normal fresh water doesnt dissolve it in the absence of co2 or of somme acid.CaOH and CaCl in my opinion are the best of the best in binding phosphates in saltwater.GFO and aluminium oxide granules falls on second place.LaCl is to treat swimming pools.

Where are you getting your information from? It seems very misguided in your posts. Or I'm curious what your motives are.

Still looking for practical testing for aquarium use of limewater to bind phosphates and how it's done.

GFO can exhaust in hours based on how much phosphates are in the water column. GFO can strip PO4 to stressful levels to corals. GFO has shown to be very effective in seawater.

LaCL3 is just as effective in our aquariums as it is in pools and can be to effective.

 

[jason2459]

Randy Holmes Farley is the greatest chemist in the hobby but even him didnt studdyed too well how calcium reacts with the phosphates.It even stated in that article that a lot is unknown about calcium and phosphates in salt water aquarium hobby and he guessed(his assumption was good)that calcium bonds the phosphates that are leaking from dead rock.Ive used ,,cement,, word to describe it but ,,cementing,, is actually Randy Holmes Farley idea.He make first use of that word. I found a link in english language about the calcium phosphate binding propertyes.This is true scientific study.In an experiment ,calcium carbonate binded 70 percent of the phosphates in the water.Now keep in mind that calcium carbonate isnt soluble in the water,it needs to be disolved by co2 to react efficiently with phosphates .I believe there was a lot of co2 in the water where they made the tests.They consider using it to save somme areas from eutrofization. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2810262/

As Bertoni already stated this is not applicable to our reeftanks. And CaCO3's capabilities I did not question. Its calcium hydroxide I have issues with and would be very interested in how it could be applied to our tanks for PO4 reduction.

However, their mention of Renagel stood out as it is a product invented by Randy.

 

[2smokes]

Phosphates in the rock arent only organic phosphates.The phosphates that a new cured,washed in acid rock will leak are inorganic.So baking the rock or wash it in acid doesnt do nothing because thoose phosphates are embedded in the rock.In the link that Bertoni posted,Randy Holmes Farley says this ,,If the calcium carbonate deposits are growing, then phosphate may get buried in the growing crystal, which can act as a sink for phosphate, at least until that CaCO3 somehow dissolves.,,.So no matter how much GFO you will use ,only calcium can ,,cement,, thoose phosphates that the rock is leaking.Thats why calcium is much better than GFO .LaCl i told you i only used it as a floculant for the swimming pool but in aquarium i have no experience with it.And i wouldnt use LaCl because there is a cheap and easy and natural option to lower the phosphates,the kalk or Cacl or to run a calcium reactor.The best growing SPS aquarium i know thats probably best in the world, thogh you wont see it in TOTM dont use GFO or LaCl.It only gets the phosphates down by water changes and when dosing CaCl asside from the live rock filtration .I dont sell anything so i have no comercial motivation that makes me to participate in this debate.I replyed to the topic because somme guy wanted to invent the liquid GFO and i tryed to give him a better alternative to lower phosphates.

 

[jason2459]

But we have yet to see a practical way to implement what you are promoting or backing up some of the things you are stating. Especially in regard to the usage of calcium hydroxide. And I wasn't referring to pushing a product as a motivation.

 

[jason2459]

Quoting my post below just to reiterate my initial question on limewater's capabilities to reduce PO4 in our aquariums so as to keep context. Also, I would still be interested in how the conclusion that GFO is less effective in our tanks then calcium carbonate came about.

Randy was specifically replying to my question directly related to binding PO4 with iron citrate.

This is not the first time you've posted/ranted with out reason or research.

GlennF specifically doses iron citrate for the purpose of binding PO4 which is what the discussion between Randy and I was about. If I recall correctly GlennF has elevated his aquarium to .25ppm of iron after dosing. I can't link to Glennf's thread on another site to point to where he has said it. He may have on this site too as he posts here. Iron citrate could be an effective method. I would be hesitant to do so as I've posted why up earlier in this thread. People can very well disagree and still be respectful to each other. I believe GlennF to be a very successful reefkeeper.

I would love to see more documentation on testing the effectiveness of limewater dosing into an aquarium to reduce phosphates. I don't see it happening at an effective rate but I could be wrong.

If wanting to use some form of Ca then Calcium Carbonate seems to be a much safer method with out the risk of spiking alkalinity and pH.
http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2006-09/rhf/#10

And according to Randy in that article Craig Bingman failed to show appriciable reduction of PO4 with the use of limewater in an article Craig published in Aquarium Frontiers magazine.


I would also love to know where you can show that GFO is less effective at reducing PO4 then either CaOH or CaCO3?

 

[2smokes]

But we have yet to see a practical way to implement what you are promoting or backing up some of the things you are stating. Especially in regard to the usage of calcium hydroxide. And I wasn't referring to pushing a product as a motivation.

Kalk delivers 50 percent calcium and 50 percent carbonate.Stony corals and all the otther marine organisms that have a calcium carbonate shell ,consume 50 percent calcium and 50 percent carbonate just the right proportions the kalk delivers.Kalk has a high ph, but you use a litle so the spike in ph shouldnt be a problem at all if not even desirable to have a litle higher ph.Thoose statements where kalk and GFO propertyes were compared i cant find them to post and it was a scientific fact(not a study) that was written in a book of no interest for aquarists.Ive poured manny times a litle kalk in the aquarium with no ill effects for the corals and no ph spike.Manny times i killed maybe even 30 aiptasia at a time with kalk (using too much quantity) and still no ph spike ,no ill effects not even when the aiptasia was near the stony coral .Who uses kalkstirrer and dose kalk ,knows that kalk will make a cristal clear water as if you you did a water change or even better because it binds the phosphates from the water column.Once you see what kalk can do to the water then you dont need any GFO or any study to back it scientifically or any otther reef guru to explain you why it works.

 

[jason2459]

None of that has been shown to be true in regards to kalk binding any significant amounts of phosphates in a saltwater tank.

Yes, people have squirted in small amounts of kalk paste into aiptasia but people have damaged surrounding organisms but I'm not saying it will happen. I used kalk in the past like this as well and I have seen pH increases from it. It's very easy to test for and see since I have and had at the time continuous pH monitoring and logging.

I have used limewater to supplement Ca and alkalinity since around 2009. Never has it helped my PO4 levels or anyone else that I know of. If it required more there would be alkalinity and pH level issues. As saturated limewater you would have salinity issues.

I simply do not see your claims as accurate without some evidence. All evidence so far disagrees with your stance. Again, if I'm wrong I would really love to know how.

 

[dartier]

This is bit off topic (sort of), but I wanted to post this here for future reference. I found a study on the phosphate binding capabilities of bentonite clay. Here is the link to the study http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/pdf/10.1080/00380768.1956.10431877.

Their conclusions are interesting in what they attribute the binding capabilities of bentonite to. At a low PH, they conclude that Fe is the main binding mechanism, and at high PH values (above 8.0), it is the calcium in bentonite that is responsible for binding phosphate. Aluminum also plays a part. Just putting this out there, not that I necessarily agree with 2smokes' conclusions.

I did use bentonite clay in my past tank as a floculant. Coincidentally, I also had issues with low Phosphate in that tank after using bentonite for a short period of time. At the time I had attributed the low PO4 it to All-In-One bio pellets that I also had in use. I ended up taking the bio pellets off line and still had on going issues of too low PO4. I actually had to dose inorganic PO4 in that tank for many months to try to keep my corals happy. I had a few unfortunate events (crashes) where my PO4 dosing had run dry and I did not notice and my PO4 would drop to 0 and I would get a RTN/STN event. I always attributed the PO4 issues to some residue left by the All-In-One pellets, maybe that was not the actual culprit ....

I never really thought much about the bentonite after I stopped using it, but I did notice when taking the tank down, that there was a fine silt in the bottom of the bare bottom tank (under the rocks) that looked a lot like the bentonite clay.

I started experimenting with bentonite after reading a thread online about its uses in a reef tank. Now I have to find that thread see if it made any reference to phosphate binding and I simply forgot/overlooked it.

So it looks like I have another thing to test for phosphate binding.

Dennis

 

[jason2459]

Nice article thanks. The pH binding rose above a pH of 9 shifting towards the calcium ions in the clay.

But the contention isn't the fact that PO4 will bind with Ca. That we know and experience with our rocks as the PO4 levels in the water drops the phosphates leach back out raising the waters PO4 levels again until there is equilibrium. This can go back and forth.

The issue comes in the form of Calcium Hydroxide and utilizing in our tanks as a means of PO4 reduction.

That is interesting the shifts in pH they studied.

 

[dartier]

Hmm, the correlation to PH is interesting. I wonder if the anecdotal reports/speculation about kalk lowering phosphate has more to do with the PH of the tank, then with the fact kalk is being used? Because kalk will raise the PH of the tank, and some people have high PH values to start with, so their tank may be running at a PH level where calcium can play a noticeable part in binding PH whereas for tanks with naturally low PH, the kalk dosing does not move the PH into the range where significant calcium binding takes place.

The graphs in the article illustrated quite well that the binding that takes place which is being attributed to calcium starts with a modest effectiveness (~10%) around PH 8.00, but rises quickly to a point around 50% in the range of PH 8.4-8.5.

In any case, if I am binding phosphate, then I want it to be either inside a coral skeleton, or in a media that I can remove from the tank. Precipitating onto my rocks does not seem like a worthwhile plan.

Dennis

 

[jason2459]

Or it's the precipitated CaCO3 at the site of dosing CaOH that phosphates are binding too which the local dosing site will have much higher pH levels with limewater having a pH around 12. I can see that happening. But not at a very high level to be helpful.

My site of dosing has a nice build up of calcium. It would be interesting to see how much PO4 is there.