Loosing the fight with algae, help with ID and ideas how to beat it.
- Thread starter fairladyZ
- Start date
So i tested water again today just to check on everything.
SG: 1.026
Temp: 79
PH: 8.4
Alk: 9.5
Cal: 350
Mag: 1350
PH Less than .03 on Idip photometer
Nitrates: less than 4 on IDip photometer and 0 on redsea test kit.
I had the tank blacked out all day. I got some chaeto, scrubbed the rocks and removed all debri and scraped the sand clean in the refugium, Turned the light on to 24/7 and put the chaeto in. I tried to feed the fish but only a few came out and ate, the rest i assume are hiding.
Tomorrow i'm going to plumb in another GFO reactor, I just changed the GFO out on the other one on Sunday so they will be a week apart which isn't to bad.
LFS is coming on monday to do a 100gallon water change. They are going to remove the blankets monday morning, scrub the rocks as much as they can, and siphon out the floating algae for the 100 gallon removal, then replace.
I'm still dosing the 2 part, tech m, and will continue with the nopox. I have been looking into ATS and a chaeto reactor. I get what your saying and will look into it. But i figure if i can remove the phostates (aka the algae itself) and suck it all out with a big water change that should essentially be exporting the nutrient problem. If i can get it to grow in my refugium where i can easily manage it then I might be able to then build a ATS in my refugium aswell as run chaeto.
I also ordered a big cuc. 150 ceriths, 100 blue leg hermits, 15 turbo snails, 20 nassarius, 20 margarita snails, 30 nerite snails. I will probably also pick up a couple urchins.
SG: 1.026
Temp: 79
PH: 8.4
Alk: 9.5
Cal: 350
Mag: 1350
PH Less than .03 on Idip photometer
Nitrates: less than 4 on IDip photometer and 0 on redsea test kit.
I had the tank blacked out all day. I got some chaeto, scrubbed the rocks and removed all debri and scraped the sand clean in the refugium, Turned the light on to 24/7 and put the chaeto in. I tried to feed the fish but only a few came out and ate, the rest i assume are hiding.
Tomorrow i'm going to plumb in another GFO reactor, I just changed the GFO out on the other one on Sunday so they will be a week apart which isn't to bad.
LFS is coming on monday to do a 100gallon water change. They are going to remove the blankets monday morning, scrub the rocks as much as they can, and siphon out the floating algae for the 100 gallon removal, then replace.
I'm still dosing the 2 part, tech m, and will continue with the nopox. I have been looking into ATS and a chaeto reactor. I get what your saying and will look into it. But i figure if i can remove the phostates (aka the algae itself) and suck it all out with a big water change that should essentially be exporting the nutrient problem. If i can get it to grow in my refugium where i can easily manage it then I might be able to then build a ATS in my refugium aswell as run chaeto.
I also ordered a big cuc. 150 ceriths, 100 blue leg hermits, 15 turbo snails, 20 nassarius, 20 margarita snails, 30 nerite snails. I will probably also pick up a couple urchins.
dkeller_nc
New member
Wow, sounds like you're serious about this with all of the manual work and the CUC that you ordered.
Let me see if I can tie all of this together for you so that you've a coordinated strategy going forward.
Almost all "dead rock" has the potential to have absorbed phosphates, either in the form of precipitated calcium phosphate on the surface, or in the composition of the rock itself if it's man-made; one of the biggest uses for recycled phosphorus from fluorescent bulbs is as an additive for cement and concrete. Algae is capable of extracting this phosphate from the rock to use for growth, so the water concentration of phosphate can be zero or nearly zero and the rock will still support luxuriant algae growth.
Very little phosphate is required to support algal growth - just a few tens of parts per billion is enough. This is well below the limit of detection for all but photometer-based ultra low range test kits. This is why the Hanna Checker Low Range (713) and ultra low range (736) tests are so popular. These tests allow reefers to sensitively measure the phosphorus/phosphate concentration in the water and determine when a chemical filtration means like Granular Ferric Oxide (GFO) needs to be changed.
The species of algae matters. GHA like derbesia and related genuses typically do respond to nutrient export from the tank and good husbandry practices. Bryposis, however, is known to be problematic regardless of how low the nutrients are in the tank. And almost all creatures will refuse to eat it. That's where the TechM technique comes in. Bryopsis is sensitive to a contaminant in TechM, though not the dominant material (magnesium). Typically, one needs to raise the mg concentration of the tank water from perhaps 1200 ppm to at least 1500 ppm with TechM to get enough of the contaminant in the tank to be effective. For a 210 gallon, this is going to be quite a lot of TechM - roughly 2 liters. So if you decide to go this route, buy a gallon size.
A warning about TechM treatment for bryopsis - adding this material in large quantities to a tank typically wipes out the shrimp and snail population, though some species seem more resiliant than others. If you algae is indeed bryposis, you should see an effect within 3-4 days of adding the TechM. If it responds, you should maintain the TechM additions (with water changes to remove the excess magnesium) for 3-4 weeks to totally wipe out the bryopsis and ensure that it won't return.
With respect to nutrient export, it's essential to have a good skimmer and use effective chemical filtration (typically, GFO and GAC). If the rock is actually leaching phophates, that reservoir will eventually be depleted, but it will take a few months with diligent chemical phosphate removal. That can be quite a lot of GFO, which is expensive. You may want to consider regenerating your GFO, which can be done with a sodium hydroxide solution in a mason jar on the kitchen counter.
With respect to "hurrying up" the depletion of a phosphate reservoir on the surface of the rock, you can consider acid-washing. Given that your tank's already set up with inhabitants, this would have to be a one-rock-at-a-time procedure. The basics are removing a rock, rinsing it off, placing it in a plastic bucket/tank outside, and adding diluted muriatic acid (muriatic is the common name for HCl, btw). The muriatic acid will react with the calcium carbonate on the surface of the rock, dissolving it. In the process, it will also dissolve any precipitated calcium phosphate. Then you thoroughly rinse the rock and place it back in the tank. You'll need to wait a week or two to treat the next rock so that bacteria have a chance to re-populate the treated substrate and you don't wind up wiping out your entire bio-filter by doing all of the rock at once.
Note that if your rock is man-made, the acid treatment may actually make things worse if the rock was made with typically cement products that contain phosphorus. Since the phosphorus would be throughout the rock, the acid treatment would just expose more phosphorus-rich surface area to leach into the tank.
Finally, if your tank is a Fish Only with Live Rock set-up (i.e., no corals and no plans for corals), I think most of us would suggest that you simply live with some algae. The fish don't care, and it can be a whole lot of work and expense to control algae in a setting where it doesn't cause any harm.
Let me see if I can tie all of this together for you so that you've a coordinated strategy going forward.
Almost all "dead rock" has the potential to have absorbed phosphates, either in the form of precipitated calcium phosphate on the surface, or in the composition of the rock itself if it's man-made; one of the biggest uses for recycled phosphorus from fluorescent bulbs is as an additive for cement and concrete. Algae is capable of extracting this phosphate from the rock to use for growth, so the water concentration of phosphate can be zero or nearly zero and the rock will still support luxuriant algae growth.
Very little phosphate is required to support algal growth - just a few tens of parts per billion is enough. This is well below the limit of detection for all but photometer-based ultra low range test kits. This is why the Hanna Checker Low Range (713) and ultra low range (736) tests are so popular. These tests allow reefers to sensitively measure the phosphorus/phosphate concentration in the water and determine when a chemical filtration means like Granular Ferric Oxide (GFO) needs to be changed.
The species of algae matters. GHA like derbesia and related genuses typically do respond to nutrient export from the tank and good husbandry practices. Bryposis, however, is known to be problematic regardless of how low the nutrients are in the tank. And almost all creatures will refuse to eat it. That's where the TechM technique comes in. Bryopsis is sensitive to a contaminant in TechM, though not the dominant material (magnesium). Typically, one needs to raise the mg concentration of the tank water from perhaps 1200 ppm to at least 1500 ppm with TechM to get enough of the contaminant in the tank to be effective. For a 210 gallon, this is going to be quite a lot of TechM - roughly 2 liters. So if you decide to go this route, buy a gallon size.
A warning about TechM treatment for bryopsis - adding this material in large quantities to a tank typically wipes out the shrimp and snail population, though some species seem more resiliant than others. If you algae is indeed bryposis, you should see an effect within 3-4 days of adding the TechM. If it responds, you should maintain the TechM additions (with water changes to remove the excess magnesium) for 3-4 weeks to totally wipe out the bryopsis and ensure that it won't return.
With respect to nutrient export, it's essential to have a good skimmer and use effective chemical filtration (typically, GFO and GAC). If the rock is actually leaching phophates, that reservoir will eventually be depleted, but it will take a few months with diligent chemical phosphate removal. That can be quite a lot of GFO, which is expensive. You may want to consider regenerating your GFO, which can be done with a sodium hydroxide solution in a mason jar on the kitchen counter.
With respect to "hurrying up" the depletion of a phosphate reservoir on the surface of the rock, you can consider acid-washing. Given that your tank's already set up with inhabitants, this would have to be a one-rock-at-a-time procedure. The basics are removing a rock, rinsing it off, placing it in a plastic bucket/tank outside, and adding diluted muriatic acid (muriatic is the common name for HCl, btw). The muriatic acid will react with the calcium carbonate on the surface of the rock, dissolving it. In the process, it will also dissolve any precipitated calcium phosphate. Then you thoroughly rinse the rock and place it back in the tank. You'll need to wait a week or two to treat the next rock so that bacteria have a chance to re-populate the treated substrate and you don't wind up wiping out your entire bio-filter by doing all of the rock at once.
Note that if your rock is man-made, the acid treatment may actually make things worse if the rock was made with typically cement products that contain phosphorus. Since the phosphorus would be throughout the rock, the acid treatment would just expose more phosphorus-rich surface area to leach into the tank.
Finally, if your tank is a Fish Only with Live Rock set-up (i.e., no corals and no plans for corals), I think most of us would suggest that you simply live with some algae. The fish don't care, and it can be a whole lot of work and expense to control algae in a setting where it doesn't cause any harm.
biecacka
Active member
Vodka and vinegar dos I helped reduce my nitrates. Also, if you can remove any of the rock dip them in a bucket of water and peroxide and scrub them with a tooth brush. The peroxide kills gha and then rinse it and place it back in the tank. If nothing else it visually looks better
Corey
Corey
So the first sign of the tech m dosing. As someone previously posted it is taking an affect on the inverts. I lost a peppermint shrimp that i had in the fuge. The other that is still down there seems really slow and not wanting to move. Looked thru the display and saw a couple of my other peppermints staring at me but not alot of movement. I looked at the algae on today is the 3rd day of lights out and 4th day of dosing tech m. It doesn't look to be changing much at all. Still dark green, Some has detached and gotten into my powerheads but not any more than usual. My overflow doesn't have a bunch stuck to it and not really seeing much in my filtersock. No more than normal really. SO i'm not sure if it's worth it to keep dosing the tech M. I will test again later today but if i had to guess I've gone from 1250 mag to probably around 1500 over 3 days.
I did start looking into algae scrubbers and trying to find a nice one that i can put in my stand. I don't have the room to just build a hanging one over my sump so trying to find a nice self contained one. The SM UAS looks small and compact but A) it sounds like it's incredibly noisy from the air pump and bubbles. B) I just doesn't seem to work near as good as the waterfall types.
The Turbo Aquatics one looks VERY nice and seems to be the best built and performs the best but they are pretty spendy and from the sounds of it he'd be a couple months out from even being able to aquire one.
Next I came across this one while searching on a website addictiveaquaculture. They have one called an AS-2 Medium that seem decently built and similar to Turbo Aquatics but not as nice. But it is significantly cheaper.
So the algae scrubber is something i'm intrested in just trying to find one that will work for my setup and needs.
I did start looking into algae scrubbers and trying to find a nice one that i can put in my stand. I don't have the room to just build a hanging one over my sump so trying to find a nice self contained one. The SM UAS looks small and compact but A) it sounds like it's incredibly noisy from the air pump and bubbles. B) I just doesn't seem to work near as good as the waterfall types.
The Turbo Aquatics one looks VERY nice and seems to be the best built and performs the best but they are pretty spendy and from the sounds of it he'd be a couple months out from even being able to aquire one.
Next I came across this one while searching on a website addictiveaquaculture. They have one called an AS-2 Medium that seem decently built and similar to Turbo Aquatics but not as nice. But it is significantly cheaper.
So the algae scrubber is something i'm intrested in just trying to find one that will work for my setup and needs.
I'm no expert but to me that looks like gha. My bryopsis almost looked like a fern branch and wasn't as full looking. The stalks were a little thicker also. I know there is a million different types of algae out there but that looks like exactly what I had left over after the Kent tech m treatment. I would definitely get it identified before you continue on with kent tech m or go buying up every algae fighting device known to man 
I haven't been in this hobby very long but one thing that I was told and has become VERY true to me is "good things don't happen fast in a reef tank". It sounds like your on the right track with water changes, gfo, cuc and manual removal. It may take some time ( I know it did for me) but you will win the fight.
I haven't been in this hobby very long but one thing that I was told and has become VERY true to me is "good things don't happen fast in a reef tank". It sounds like your on the right track with water changes, gfo, cuc and manual removal. It may take some time ( I know it did for me) but you will win the fight.Ya i think i'm going to stop the tech m. Nothing is changing and i don't want to loose what little CUC i have and what is coming in tomorrow. So i'll just go forward with the plan minus the tech M. It doesn't look like bryopsis to me either but it's been such a pain i thought maybe it was. But your right this looks more like a HAIR than a Fern
Crush Coral
New member
I have been fighting HA for years. I finally installed a sump and put a 54 watt par 38 led light on it. Tech m ki)s bryopsis and not ha. I tried 2 sea hares and each ate it for 5 mins then stopped and starved. Sea urchin did not eat mine. I am now running phosguard in my reactor which I will change every 2 weeks for a while. Ats I believe may be the only way to beat it. I am going to make one that hangs on the inside of my fuge making a ramp done to the water. A pice of the knitting mesh will be set inside and a small pump to pump the water up to a small spray bar at the top of the ats. Saw one on here somewhere and it should do the trick with my par 38 light on it. Good luck!!!!
wildman926
Active member
I hope you can get this turned around. I am sharing some pics of corals I had and lost, and corals I have today. The only corals that survived the "crash" was a cup corral, and a pair of bubble corals, and a pair of fungias.
Here is a pic of the previous corals I had lost -
Here is a pic I just took the other day before I did some maintenance on it (scraped the glass, clean the sponge filter, etc.) -
The only corals that made it through were 2 bubble corals, a couple of chalices, and the green cup coral. Hard lesson to learn, but I did not have any excess nutrient then, and paid the price for it. Now, with the ATS and chaeto reactor, the only algae you see in the display tank is what forms on the glass. I intentionally left it there and took the pic to show that is all that I get now. I have both LPS and SPS in this tank growing now. I also have a 90g that went through the same scenario, and it has softies and LPS in it. All my corals in both pics, grew from small frags.
I still stand by my recommendation -
Short term - Use API's Algaefix Marine.
Long term - deploy an ATS, and keep your chaeto going in the sump.
I KNOW that this method works. I hope this helps you.
Here is a pic of the previous corals I had lost -
Here is a pic I just took the other day before I did some maintenance on it (scraped the glass, clean the sponge filter, etc.) -
The only corals that made it through were 2 bubble corals, a couple of chalices, and the green cup coral. Hard lesson to learn, but I did not have any excess nutrient then, and paid the price for it. Now, with the ATS and chaeto reactor, the only algae you see in the display tank is what forms on the glass. I intentionally left it there and took the pic to show that is all that I get now. I have both LPS and SPS in this tank growing now. I also have a 90g that went through the same scenario, and it has softies and LPS in it. All my corals in both pics, grew from small frags.
I still stand by my recommendation -
Short term - Use API's Algaefix Marine.
Long term - deploy an ATS, and keep your chaeto going in the sump.
I KNOW that this method works. I hope this helps you.
Well 3 of us scrubber and did 100 gallon water change this morning. Got a TON off but there is still some in the hard to reach places. I think the plan at this point is next monday do the same thing again. Scrub the hard to reach places and whatever else is left and then do another 100 gallon water change.
Put in the CUC. 150 ceriths, 100 blue leg, 20 turbo snails, 30 nassarius, 30 nerite, 20 margarita snails. They didn't send any urchins so they'll have to wait.
updated pics sorry my lights still aren't up to full intensity so it's kinda Purple from the UV
Put in the CUC. 150 ceriths, 100 blue leg, 20 turbo snails, 30 nassarius, 30 nerite, 20 margarita snails. They didn't send any urchins so they'll have to wait.
updated pics sorry my lights still aren't up to full intensity so it's kinda Purple from the UV
So figured I would update. After all the cleanup crew, and another 100 gallon waterchange with some manual removal I think we are ahead of the curve here. Still doings little areas here and there little bits at a time. Have a little bit more of a wet skim going as well. Progress. lets hope it isn't short lived.
Crush Coral
New member
Now add that ats. If you do not the ha will be back and you will have to do all that work again. If you start growing the ha in your sump you will hopefully grow it there and not in your tank.
