Los Angeles Wholesalers??

[Marine_Envy]

Hello everyone!

I am in the process of researching a new reef tank. I'm thinking about a 5x2x2 (needs to go on a specific wall) and was wondering about a few things that I'm having trouble with. Firstly, live rock/live sand. Looking around town, I'm seeing live rock prices anywhere from $4 lb., to $6-7 lb. depending on quantity purchased. To me (coming from freshwater) this is obscene. I realize there is a lot of transportation costs, processing costs etc., but jeez!

I'm heading over to LA (Anaheim) with the kids to Disneyland and was considering driving over with a Tahoe or Navigator (rental) and on the way back buying some live rock. (Obviously I would have a tank ready before I do any of this ) Are there any wholesalers who would sell to me without forging a business license etc.?

Or at the very least a place I could maybe buy it for $1 to $2 ?

If I'm off base entirely, please let me know. I just am contemplating filling my tank with probably 100-150 pounds of rock and the math is looking ugly.. I guess the other option would be to cure the rock myself, but I've also heard that you shouldn't cure rock in your live system because of nasties in the water, and algae that won't go away for a year or so..

The other question I had was on tank layout in regards to where the holes go, and where the best place for the overflow is. I was thinking about a 2" overflow in the middle of the tank and two 1" returns on either end in the corner for adequate reef flow. Is this sensible? I don't know, I've got a reef book but it doesn't mention pros/cons either way. Also, not sure about the exact sump/refugium design either.. Is there an authority (or at least consensus) that most people adhere to?

Well I've rambled on, but I do appreciate any help!

Thanks!!!

 

[vanmle]

Try ocean pro. There link is as follows:

http://www.oceanproaquatics.com/shop/index.php/cPath/30_88

I would also try half live and half dry rock. Should save you some money and get you most of what you want.

 

[Fish4us]

It may just be me but 100-150lbs of liverock in a 5ft tank will leave it seeming bare... at least by my standards.

With a 2ft depth and 2ft height... I'm not quite sure that's enough. Ours is 6x24x30 and has 6" deep sandbed (mostly dry aragonite sand) and closer to 250lbs of liverock... and sometimes I still wish we had more.

Welcome to the hobby... some careful financial planning ahead of time will save you a lot of heartache in the long run. Also when people are getting out of the hobby or reaquascaping you can get some really good deals on rock locally that's been established in the area (some for many years even).. from other hobbyists... just watch for posts. (Of course you'll want a tank setup to be able to capitalize on the deal!)

As far as LA wholesalers... it's tough to get in the door short of waving 20K in cash as your entrance ticket (true story... worked for my hubby and his boss LOL!) The pricing on the liverock even at the wholesalers was in the $3/$4 lb range... but nowhere near as nice as being able to pick it up from established tanks.

Another financial consideration is lighting... If you don't go with quality good lighting you won't have the success you're looking for in a reef.

I'm not trying to be discouraging... this hobby can just be prohibitively expensive at times... especially initial startups. (Of course it doesn't help that you'll see something you like better as soon as it's setup LOL!)

Once you have your base system setup ... frag and prop can save you a ton of money on frags and corals to get you started down the right path... as well as invaluable advice.

Good luck and have fun in Disney Land!

Jen

 

[Satori]

If you don't mind driving to Tucson, fishaholic911 is selling some nice live rock:

http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=805576

You can keep it in a tub with a powerhead until you're ready to use it.

 

[Philwd]

I have the same 5X2X2 footprint you are considering. I started with 180 lbs of rock and am adding 50 more. 100lbs will look very bare.

The math looked ugly to me also. But after reading ALOT I came to the following conclusions:

- Get cured rock. More expensive but you are able to get fish in sooner plus you avoid almost all the algae outbreaks. Avoiding anything the significant other could object to was worth it(smell, algae etc).
- Get all live rock. Bare rock is cheaper but leaves spots for undesirables to take root.
- Get an assortment of types. All branch and all oblong makes for a tough aquascape.
- wholesalers cost is ~ 2.50.
- if possible get rock from an established tank as mentioned. HOWEVER make sure what is on that rock is compatible with what you plan on keeping. For example if you want to keep a SPS dominated tank getting rock with mushrooms on it may not be what you want to do.
- new rock is a phosphate factory. Even cured. Start with PO4 removers from the start. This has the added benefit when you add corals they will acclimate to a lower PO4 environment from the start rather than getting hit with a sudden drop when you do start using the removers.

I eventually got my rock wholesale from Matt and he cured it for me in the back of his (now closed) store. Maybe if you are buying a full setup someone will give you a deal on rock.

My overflows are in the corners. Two 1" pipes. If I had it to do over they would be in the middle. One 1.5" pipe is ~ two 1" and that should be more than enough flow screaming through your sump. The extra flow will be either closed loop or powerheads.

Erin and Scott(Reefmaiden and Sidewinder770) make excellent sumps and could probably give you pointers. Also check out Melevs reef site. One of the best resources.

BTW if you want to come over and check out my setup shoot me a PM.

Cheers,
Phil

 

[Marine_Envy]

Thanks for the info! I'm glad I'm not the only one looking at (or using) the oddball 5x2x2!

I'll bite the bullet and go with the cured live rock.. The suggestion from vanmle to look at oceanproaquatics seems to reveal decent pricing on rock.. Anywhere from $1 to $3-4 for cured rock depending on where it's from.

As for overflow, I was thinking about a \__/ shape in the middle of the tank. 18" across and 6" sides. (Stolen from Meleva's site I think) That would seem to provide good skimming. As for hole size are two 2" overkill? Would two 1.5" be acceptable? I'm not sure if more is just more, and less is more on this. I've read that you want at least two holes for drainage in case you get a clog or some other malady.

Regarding the sumps, you mentioned two local guys.. Any guestimate on what a 50G sump/refug with proper baffles would run? I've got an estimate from glass cages for an acrylic and it's around $170. (Not sure if that is good or not)

Thanks again for the help! I really appreciate it!

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7027510#post7027510 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Philwd
I have the same 5X2X2 footprint you are considering. I started with 180 lbs of rock and am adding 50 more. 100lbs will look very bare.

The math looked ugly to me also. But after reading ALOT I came to the following conclusions:

- Get cured rock. More expensive but you are able to get fish in sooner plus you avoid almost all the algae outbreaks. Avoiding anything the significant other could object to was worth it(smell, algae etc).
- Get all live rock. Bare rock is cheaper but leaves spots for undesirables to take root.
- Get an assortment of types. All branch and all oblong makes for a tough aquascape.
- wholesalers cost is ~ 2.50.
- if possible get rock from an established tank as mentioned. HOWEVER make sure what is on that rock is compatible with what you plan on keeping. For example if you want to keep a SPS dominated tank getting rock with mushrooms on it may not be what you want to do.
- new rock is a phosphate factory. Even cured. Start with PO4 removers from the start. This has the added benefit when you add corals they will acclimate to a lower PO4 environment from the start rather than getting hit with a sudden drop when you do start using the removers.

I eventually got my rock wholesale from Matt and he cured it for me in the back of his (now closed) store. Maybe if you are buying a full setup someone will give you a deal on rock.

My overflows are in the corners. Two 1" pipes. If I had it to do over they would be in the middle. One 1.5" pipe is ~ two 1" and that should be more than enough flow screaming through your sump. The extra flow will be either closed loop or powerheads.

Erin and Scott(Reefmaiden and Sidewinder770) make excellent sumps and could probably give you pointers. Also check out Melevs reef site. One of the best resources.

BTW if you want to come over and check out my setup shoot me a PM.

Cheers,
Phil

 

[vanmle]

Wow. You guys are using a lot more rock than me.

I have a 180 (well almost), and I think I am down to about 150 pounds. Started with about 200+, but as my corals grow or I just buy more, I have had to remove rock. Most of it is in my sump. I think within a few more months, I will have to remove more rocks.

 

[Philwd]

Two drains is a good idea. Just keep in mind how much flow you are going to be dumping in your sump. I run two 1" drains for about 1200 gph. One 1.5" drain will do roughly the same. Two 2" will probably be too much through your sump. Lots of noise and bubbles. Also if your skimmer will be in your sump remember you don't want the water rushing past before it can get skimmed. For our size tank two 1" should work fine. I actually plumbed one overflow into my skimmer so the water feed is raw overflow.

The overflow shape you suggest is roughly what I would do next time. I think there is a calculator on the home page that will help determine the dimensions of the overflow for the drains you want.

Forgot you don't know Scott and Erin are one of the most fantastic couples you'll meet in this hobby. They have made sumps for a few locals. Don't know how much though. I've seen the work and its high quality.

 

[Philwd]

Since you are in the planning stages I thought I would post the safeguards I built into my system.

-Two GFCI 15W outlets wired into separate breakers at the box.
-Split my life support pumps between the 2 outlets so if one trips the tank doesn't crash.
- Two battery operated air pumps that turn on when power goes off.
- float switch in sump set so if sump level drops too far return pump turns off. This will prevent the tank from overflowing if one drain gets clogged.
- Multiple lower wattage heaters so if one dies tank stays heated.
- dual stage temp controller set so even if a heater sticks on it will turn off before it cooks the tank.
- I use the Tunze osmolator top off system. It uses a float valve for high water alarm and top off turn off and an IR sensor for low level detection and top off turn on. I also only use a 10G top off reservoir so I can never crash my salinity with top off running too long.
- Got 50G sump to handle drainage from tank during power out.
- most people use chillers. I use fans. Either way you need cooling plugged into the temp controller.
- I have a skimmer rated above my tank bio load. If I do ever have a die off the extra skimming capacity might save what's left in the tank.
- ro/di water filtration
- I just got an Aquacontroller Jr for extra protection. It can for example turn off your lights if the tank temp gets too high.
- and best safeguard is read and read and read some more before buying anything.

That's all I can think of now. I need to add a backup power system for long power outtages. Lots of people use an inverter attached to a deep cycle marine battery.

Hope that helps.

 

[sidewinder770]

Guess I could chime in since I see my name mentioned .

As for rock- I can definately recommend Oceanpro. I would aslo agree that getting a few types would give you a good diversity of life (some buna, marshall, kaleni, fiji, etc). There price is decent shipped but even better if you can pick it up- just make sure it's a nice day since you'll probably need to drive all the way home with the windows rolled down it can get pretty smelly. The nice thing about getting in person is you get to pick out exactly what pieces you want which is great and something I wish I would have done.

As for acrylic work- we do build some things for locals but I don't think I'd call it "high quality"- it's not bad and our glue joints are getting better every day but would never build a display tank- we'll stick to sumps and such . Right now we are a little consummed with getting our tank skinned and have at least 2 people possibly waiting for sumps as it is. You can also check with Ocean-vu (ATR) since I know they could build one as well but have no idea as to pricing. Once summer gets here I don't think we'll be building much since it's too hot to be working in the garage that long

And like Phil said-Only put as much flow as you need to through your sump as microbubbles can be a problem. This can also greatly depend on your skimmer and how it is fed- personally I would look at gravity feeding your skimmer from the tank drain if possible.

The biggest thing I can say is research, research and then research some more- plan it right from the start and it will be much more enjoyable and cheaper in the long run. Of course once you get up and running you'll be wanting to take a trip to LA to ceck out all the great fish and coral suppliers too.