FoothillCorals
Premium Member
What are the key factors in achieving and maintaining a low nutrient SPS system with out going BB?
Low nutrient systems and sand beds
- Thread starter FoothillCorals
- Start date
shelburn61
New member
flow to keep detritus suspended. the whole basis for BB is that lack of sand makes it "easier" to keep detritus from settling and makes any detritus that does settle much easier to see and remove... and skimming
msuzuki126
New member
I like having filter socks to take junk out of the water, and also a refugium with cheato for the nutrient export.
Amphiprion
Premium Member
Strong protein skimming, vigorous water movement, activated carbon, and, if necessary, a granular phosphate remover.
RichConley
New member
It is my oppinion, that if you're trying to get low nutrients, filter socks do more harm than good. They capture things, and expose them to highly oxygenated water for long periods of time. This leads to extremely quick breakdown. Anyone ever seen a dead fish in a filtersock? They last like 6 hours.
You're much better off drain feeding a skimmer. It'll pull out anything a filter sock will stop anywyas.
Denadai
New member
I used to have a DSB in my old tank, and now I have a BB in my new reef. I have a becket skimmer and turbelles, but my nitrate is about 10 ppm
You have to have a very low bioload of fishes and feed just enough
If you add some fishes, forget about low nitrate
I´m thinking in back to DSB.....but before I´m testing the ultralith system to try keep my nitrate close to zero
Regards
You have to have a very low bioload of fishes and feed just enough
If you add some fishes, forget about low nitrate
I´m thinking in back to DSB.....but before I´m testing the ultralith system to try keep my nitrate close to zero
Regards
Gary Majchrzak
Team RC
Re: Low nutrient systems and sand beds
*with a SSB consider stirring and vacuuming when necessary
to acheive and maintain a low nutrient system with any choice of substrate ensure that nutrient export is greater than nutrient input.
*with a DSB remove and replace as necessary
*with a SSB consider stirring and vacuuming when necessary
to acheive and maintain a low nutrient system with any choice of substrate ensure that nutrient export is greater than nutrient input.
shelburn61
New member
I'm not sure I agree. This used to be the status quo, but the hobby has gotten so good with nutrient removal that now we see "why are my corals lightening?" threads all the time. Many blame coral lightening in BB tanks on LACK of nitrogen...
I now have 7 fish in a 40g and color has never been better. I do run a remote sandbed and chaeto in the fuge however...
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antonsemrad
New member
This is my opinion. DSB's keep nitrates low, but phosphate can build up over time. BB systems seek to keep phosphates low, but are prone to higher nitrates. The key is to keep both low.
BB systems tend to remove all particulates from the water column in an effort to not let any food degrade (rot), and release phospate. This is very unlike nature, and most filter feeding, herbivorous, and scavenging animals starve to death. Indeed even algae need phosphate. This is why feeding is a challenge in these systems (all food contains phosphate). When a small amount of phosphate becomes available in such a system the missing link is then provided, and then the algae begin to grow in alarming numbers (brownout), because nitrate is so avalible. I belive that the people that are most successful with BB systems find a way to remove the nitrate.
With DSB's the opposite is true. A DSB that is loaded with rotting food sucks out nitrates like there is no tommorow, but the phosphate needs to find a way out of the system, or else agae blooms and crashes occur. People that are most successful with DSB's find a way to remove the P.
You can make it work either way, but understanding what is happining is the key to success, not what method that you choose.
This is from Randy H Farley's phosphate article.
I belive that phosphate is, indeed needed, and there is ALOT of it on a natrual reef. It is just all locked up in biomass. Marine algae are very good at sucking it up out of the water column, and then, up the food chain it goes.
This is why I think that a reef tank with no algae is a poor excuse for the name "reef".
Just My Opinon
Anton
BB systems tend to remove all particulates from the water column in an effort to not let any food degrade (rot), and release phospate. This is very unlike nature, and most filter feeding, herbivorous, and scavenging animals starve to death. Indeed even algae need phosphate. This is why feeding is a challenge in these systems (all food contains phosphate). When a small amount of phosphate becomes available in such a system the missing link is then provided, and then the algae begin to grow in alarming numbers (brownout), because nitrate is so avalible. I belive that the people that are most successful with BB systems find a way to remove the nitrate.
With DSB's the opposite is true. A DSB that is loaded with rotting food sucks out nitrates like there is no tommorow, but the phosphate needs to find a way out of the system, or else agae blooms and crashes occur. People that are most successful with DSB's find a way to remove the P.
You can make it work either way, but understanding what is happining is the key to success, not what method that you choose.
This is from Randy H Farley's phosphate article.
But why?
I belive that phosphate is, indeed needed, and there is ALOT of it on a natrual reef. It is just all locked up in biomass. Marine algae are very good at sucking it up out of the water column, and then, up the food chain it goes.
This is why I think that a reef tank with no algae is a poor excuse for the name "reef".
Just My Opinon
Anton
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antonsemrad
New member
Organic nitrogen (food), not nitrates!
"The zooxanthellae are then carefully controlled by their coral host by being subjected to nitrogen limitation. As mentioned in last month’s article, nitrogen levels in coral reef waters are typically extraordinarily low, with most being found as ammonia. This is in contrast to aquaria where the dominant nitrogen species is usually nitrate. Nitrogen is the end all-be all for zooxanthellae growth and reproduction. By limiting nitrogen in the form of excretion products, the polyp keeps the zooxanthellae in the numbers and density that maximize photosynthetic efficiency for its own use. Using several released compounds, most of which are still unidentified, the polyp stimulates the zooxanthellae to release virtually all of the products of its photosynthesis, and these are then used by the polyp for its own needs. If nitrogen was made readily available to the zooxanthellae (for example, if high levels were present in the water and the dissolved nitrogen “diffused†into the coral tissue), it could then be accessed by the algae without limitation by the polyp, and zooxanthellae could begin to grow and reproduce like a “phytoplankton culture.†In this case, the symbiosis becomes less advantageous to the coral, and it will expel some of the symbionts to try and re-establish maximal benefit from its algal partners."
From the Food of Reefs to the Food of Corals
LobsterOfJustice
Recovering Detritophobe
Awesome flow so nothing can settle and rot... I bumped my 75g with a ssb up to 70x turnover last week. Skim like crazy to remove all the stuff you keep suspended with your flow. You dont need to keep the bioload particularly light either...
250G
New member
While I understand your logic noted below, IME 100 micron filter socks do an excelent job of acting as a mechanical filter (provided you change them out every 3 days or so as required). I cycle through about 16 on my system to avoid having to wash them all the time. I have not experienced problems with increasing nutrient levels over the 12 months of so I have been using them. Micron bags also keep your sump perfectly clean and control micro bubbles.
In fact, I noticed that my skimmer (beckett) works more efficiently for much longer now as particulate is trapped in the micron bag and does not get stuck in the injector.
In fact, I noticed that my skimmer (beckett) works more efficiently for much longer now as particulate is trapped in the micron bag and does not get stuck in the injector.
j.prostrata
In Memoriam
I agree filter socks on BB here.. Also NO3 is a problem with BB not PO4 if you have you import and export working properly.
RichConley
New member
Every few days isnt enough. You'd have to change out a filtersock every 20 minutes to keep stuff from breaking down in it. It happens that fast.
j.prostrata
In Memoriam
I change mine at 2-3 days and test with hanna under .01 po4... This is on a 240 tank also with 60 gallon sump...
250G
New member
Well we will have to agree to disagree on thin one then!
I previsouly used my skimmer (and 7 sump baffels) as the only form of mechanical filtration - but now I would never go without filter socks as it keeps the entire return plenum free of particulate.
Rich - are you speaking of breaking down physically or chemically in this short of time frame?
Also, I have a SSB and have never identified a need to test anything except ca and dkh.
I previsouly used my skimmer (and 7 sump baffels) as the only form of mechanical filtration - but now I would never go without filter socks as it keeps the entire return plenum free of particulate.
Rich - are you speaking of breaking down physically or chemically in this short of time frame?
Also, I have a SSB and have never identified a need to test anything except ca and dkh.
I never had any issues in my tank with high nitrates. I do have many fish, and feed a lot. I think if you skim good, the nitrats won't build up.
I also use Micron bags sometimes, I do change them every day though. Never had problems with it. (didn't measure elevated NO3, PO4)
Leonardo
I also use Micron bags sometimes, I do change them every day though. Never had problems with it. (didn't measure elevated NO3, PO4)
Leonardo
Horace
New member
Well the way I see it, stuff is going to break down in my tank or in the sock. If it starts in the sock and I am able to get ANY of it out before it fully breaks down then I have gained. The amount of particulate in the water before and after using the socks is no comparison. I am willing to let the stuff rot in there for a few days if need be. Better than rotting somewhere else, and I dont think a skimmer is going to remove the particulate either in most cases so its got to get out somehow....
I also think the sock builds up a fairly large colony of bacteria and by removing the bacteria, with it I am also removing nutrients.
I also think the sock builds up a fairly large colony of bacteria and by removing the bacteria, with it I am also removing nutrients.
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