Low Ph?

[clkwrk]

Okay salt dropped .........But a salt that low on alk and isn't buffered will affect the ph ....Low alk causes low PH.........


There are no diffent chemistries in a BB tank than any other . Chemistry is the same for all tanks . BB tanks don't need different chemistries....


Here is a quote from Dr. Randys DIY recipe. All I am trying to do is correct the information being provided that baking soad will raise a tanks PH. Simply not going to happen unless it is turned into washing soda.

"Recipe #1 is for use in aquaria where the pH is normal to low. It will have a pH raising effect due to the elevated pH of the alkalinity part, as do most of the commercial two-part additives. The rise that you get will depend on the alkalinity in your aquarium, and, of course, on how much you add. If you add on the order of 0.5 meq/l of alkalinity then the pH will rise about 0.15 to 0.35 pH units immediately upon addition (and higher locally before it has a chance to mix into the whole aquarium).

"

Another about washingsoda

"Spread baking soda (594 grams or about 2 ¼ cups) on a baking tray and heat in an ordinary oven at 300 °F for 1 hour to drive off water and carbon dioxide. Dissolve the residual solid in enough water to make 1 gallon total. This dissolution may require a fair amount of mixing. Warming it speeds the dissolution process. This solution will contain about 1,900 meq/L of alkalinity (5,300 dKH). I prefer to use baked baking soda rather than washing soda in this recipe as baking soda from a grocery store is always food grade, while washing soda may not have the same purity requirements. Arm & Hammer brand is a fine choice.

"

 

[clkwrk]

Darkforce- Once you have reliable test kits for ph and alk you can use this calculator to determine how much to dose of a alk suplement to raise the alk . Just pick an alk supplement from the drop down menu which has the diy versions and store bought supplements.

http://jdieck1.home.comcast.net/chemcalc.html

 

[AZDesertRat]

All that aside, the simple fact is the tank is only about three weeks old and is just completing its initial cycle so its too soon to make any calls as to what the problems are or are not. I have seen the tank, it has good circulation, no CO2 problem, good skimming and oxygen transfer, a DSB and brand spanking new liverock. I would give it a few more weeks with a few 10 to 20% water changes and start a testing program from there. Its just too soon to make an accurate call until it is more established, things will not be perfect from day one. We all have a tendancy to rush things when nature needs to take its course at its own pace. Things like pH measurements and any supplement additions need to be done at different times of the day and recorded over multiple days to establish a history.

 

[clkwrk]

I agree AJ just don't want to see someone dump baking soda into their tank thinking it will raise the PH.

recently I had a buddy who thought that washing soda only raised PH I told and showed him otherwise . I also told him to measure his alk ......It was at 11.2 dkh. Longways away from the 8- 9 he wanted to be at.

 

[AZDesertRat]

Yep, I agree. I take advice here with a grain of salt (no pun intended) until I do more research myself, especially if it comes from someone with only a few posts. If I find a concensus or a very large following then I may try it myself but not until I test the waters (again no pun intended).

 

[bnlimit10]

AZDESERTRAT- I understand your trepidation, however I have been in this hobby for 15+ years, so the number of post doesnt reflect that at all. Just because you made it to reefcentral and post a lot more than someone else,that is not a barometer of you knowledge. no pun intended.

 

[clkwrk]

I like how the hbby experience just went from 10 to 15 ............ :lol: you gained an extra 5 years in 1 min :lol:

 

[AZDesertRat]

Do you have a 14 year old Sebae Anemone or fish that have exceeded 13 years in your tanks? I think you are barking up the wrong tree bud.

 

[clkwrk]

Also the only reason I went back and forth is because someone with 10 so called years experiene oh wait now 15 gave bad info that will be read by lots of other people .

I have only a mear 4 years experience but I also feel I have a better grasp on the chemical end when dealing with tanks. Plus I can give you many links to backup my recomendations or my info .

I am here to learn and help others . The majority of my posts are helping others out while I learn in between . Not all of my knowledge comes form here on RC either i have a great collection of books I also utilize the search engines to digup whatever I can find old and new to read so I read lots and lots of scientific articles and publications. Again to broaden my knowledge and to help others.

 

[bnlimit10]

Correct me if I am wrong, but the last time I checked this was a forum to share information, not a forum to do one ups on everyone.

azdesertrat, yes I had coral colonies in florida that lived for over a decade as well as fish, when I moved here, I got rid of everything much like ed did when he moved.

Chris; I am glad that in your 4 years you have learned so much, and perhaps much more than others with many more years. I am simply stating my opinions that I have formed over years of doing this hobby. I went past the books a very long time ago, as far as my correction on time in the hobby, last time I checked I was human and entitled to make mistakes, but if you want I can show you pictures from 15 years ago with my tanks.

 

[bnlimit10]

Ok, well desertrat and Chris, since apparently both of you want to take the low road, let the class begin. First of all CO2 at room temperature is found in its gaseous state, that’s why you have those pretty little metallic cans next to your calcium reactors, Co2 turns into its liquid state around 36 degrees and its solid state is far below the freezing point, so needless to say you could not have it in a powder sitting in your cabinets. I can understand how you would confuse bicarbonate which is the main ingredient of baking soda, with carbon dioxide which is co2, after all they both say carbon in their name. First lesson bicarbonate is molecule that is formed by hydrogen carbon atoms and three oxygen atoms in room temperature it is found in its solid state turns to liquid at 110 degrees and can change into gaseous form under pressure at 323.5degrees and above. Needless to say we wouldn’t want to put something that hot in a tin can or in our aquariums for that matter. Carbon dioxide or co2 is one carbon atom bonding with 2 oxygen atoms. Bicarbonate is a base, meaning that in the ph scale it registers a ph higher than 7, in this case it has a ph of 9.8-10.5 depending on how you are measuring the ph. Co2 on the other hand is an acid meaning that its ph on the scale is below a 7. Obviously you wouldn’t want to add co2 when you have a low ph.

So again, I understand that you are concerned about people reading stuff that may be misleading or incorrect, but the next time you try and correct someone with a much better understanding of chemistry than yours, I would suggest for you to do a little reading, or ask for clarification if you do not understand what is being stated. This will save you a lot of time, not to mention it will save you from the embarrassment of someone having to point out how flawed your theories and explanations are to the world of reefcentral at large.

In conclusion, if you want references as you mentioned previously, open your refrigerator door or wherever you keep your baking soda and you will notice its ingredient is sodium bicarbonate, and really close to that name you will notice it says antacid. That means that it raises the ph of what ever you put it on via chemical reactions. Further explanations on these two compounds can also be found in every chemistry book that has a section dedicated to bases and acids, so as you Google so much look it up.

Now before I let you go from class, I also want to point out that in your explanation you were partially correct. Ha!!!!, yes there was some chemical truth to your statements. You stated that if you have a meter and you add baking soda you would see the ph drop, see that is the beauty of chemistry, when you add baking soda to water two things happen, first ph dips because as a chain of chemical reactions baking soda breaks down into co2 and water, but the second reaction is an increase in ph as the co2 at room temperature escapes out of our water because at this temperature co2 compounds turn into a gas, hence and increase in ph. That’s why you co2 reactor is pressurized, so that the co2 can lower the ph in the chamber and release the calcium out of the substrate you use in it, but as soon as it exits that chamber it turns right back into a gas. For those of you that don’t know this the bicarbonate/carbonate ionic system is what our bodies use to regulate our bloods ph, bicarbonate raises the ph and carbonate lowers it.

I hope this helps you a little in your understanding of chemistry and if you have any further questions about it please don’t hesitate to ask.

 

[grenaria]

Co2 turns into its liquid state around 36 degrees

CO2 liquid has a vapor pressure much higher than that of water. At STP CO2 has NO liquid phase, it sublimates directly from a solid to a gas. CO2 does have a liquid phase around 36F, at about 35atm. If you don't believe me, go to the grocery store and buy a chunk of dry ice and try to make some liquid CO2.

its solid state is far below the freezing point

And I am much taller than I am.

you could not have it in a powder sitting in your cabinets

Pop Rocks.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I was asked to pop in here, so I'll make a few comments.

1. A pH of 7.2 sounds like it is so low that it may be a testing problem.

2. If carbonate alkalinity is normal to high, low pH is ALWAYS caused by excess CO2 in the tank water. These articles show how CO2 impacts both low and high pH:

Low pH: Causes and Cures
http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2004-09/rhf/index.htm

High pH: Causes and Cures
http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2005-03/rhf/index.htm


3. The excess CO2 may be from excess CO2 in your home air, or just in the tank. It may even come from a lot of CO2 production during initial cycling where a lot of organics are being broken down. The aeration experiments in the article linked above will help sort that out.

4. More aeration with fresh air and the use of limewater are always good ways to raise pH if alkalinity is 2.5 meq/L or higher.

5. Adding baking soda to seawater will initially lower pH. Later, the tank may release some of that CO2 that the baking soda brought in, and the pH may rise. But since low pH effects are often caused by excess CO2 to begin with, that extra CO2 often is not driven out of the water, and the pH does not rise. I show exactly how much and why it happens in this article:

The Relationship Between Alkalinity and pH.
http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/may2002/chem.htm

If you bake the baking soda first, you can drive off CO2 and form sodium carbonate (washing soda), and then it has a pH raising effect when added.

 

[kirstenk]

So, if ya take out the CO2 factor (cuz these guys weren't arguing CO2) based from what I read in the article, adding soda (baked or not) will raise Ph. Un-baked will have a short term drop in PH while baked or washed will have a short term rise in PH but BOTH will create a higher Ph over the course.

FROM THE ARTICLE:

Bicarbonate, on the other hand, shows the expected slight decrease in pH, but not nearly as much as is found with a strong acid of equal concentration. It is also clear that after sufficient time to equilibrate with atmospheric CO2, these differences disappear, and the pH is the same for all of the 0.5-meq/L
alkalinity additions. This is an important result: in seawater in equilibrium with the atmosphere, for a given alkalinity there is a single pH that results,regardless of what was added to get to that alkalinity.

Bicarbonate Addition

The addition of bicarbonate as an alkalinity supplement is rather different. In this case, the bicarbonate partially dissociates into carbonate and H+, and the tank experiences an increase in bicarbonate and carbonate, and a drop in pH.:

15. HCO3- à H+ + CO3--

Consequently, the immediate effect on pH is for it to drop. The drop is small because not much of the bicarbonate dissociates at normal tank pH, but enough does to drive the pH a bit lower (from 8.10 to 8.06 in the experiment above).

In the long term, however, the effect is different. Since a substantial amount of bicarbonate was added and the pH did not change much, the tank is now overloaded with bicarbonate with respect to what it would normally have in equilibrium with air. Some of the bicarbonate picks up a proton, becomes carbonic acid, and the pH rises as the CO2 is blown off to the atmosphere:

16. HCO3- + H+ à H2CO3 à CO2 + H2O

In the experiment above, this effect has caused the pH to rise from 8.06 to 8.33. So the long-term effect of bicarbonate addition (as it is for any addition to carbonate alkalinity) is to raise pH even though the short-term effect was to lower it.

 

[clkwrk]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7478182#post7478182 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by bnlimit10
are you running a barebottom tank, if so you can temporarily raise ph by adding a little baking soda.

Thats all dandy and yes that is right but my argument is with this phrase above.......... I know that ph and alk have a close relationship . But baking soda will not raise your ph upon addition making it a not so good temporary fix short term . Now yes add baking soda now and the long term effect will raise ph to corespond with the alk if the co2 levels arent in excess.But again thats not short term IMO and the fact that is that alk will rise with any bakingsoda addition which was not mentioned

That is my whole reason for a stink ......

But I am done here.......


Unsubscribed

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

So, if ya take out the CO2 factor (cuz these guys weren't arguing CO2) based from what I read in the article, adding soda (baked or not) will raise Ph.

No, that isn't what I said, either here or in the article. Adding baking soda raw will drop pH a tad. It may or may not come up later. If the pH is low, then there is excess CO2 in either the water or the water and the air. In either case, it implies that CO2 gas is not readily escaping.

NOTE:

You only have low pH because YOU ARE NOT in equilibrium with normal air. If you were, the pH would be 8.2 to 8.4 all the time (depending on the alkalinity).

You know what would be easiest for you to do is just try it. Add some raw baking soda and see what that does for your pH over the next 0-24 hours.

 

[DarkFORCE]

Wow this has become very interesting. First I think I will get a good test kit. The one AZDersertrat loaned me only test for 4 basic things. What a good multi test kit I should get?

 

[clkwrk]

get single kits.

You should have one for

ALK
Calcium
MG

I would also recommend that you also get the other kits if you don't already have some.

Do an online buy and save $ Salifert IMO is the best way to go without going high end $50 kits.

 

[AZDesertRat]

There really are no good multi test kits. Salifert kits seem to be the choice but they are individual kits. There are some vendors that combine some of their kits into a package deal, someone jump in here with some vendors. Since I use my pH controller I don't have a good kit anymore to loan you.
I do have calcium. Alk/KH, iodine, phosphate, silicates, strontium, nitrate and magnesium though.

 

[aztbs]

Salifert's PH test kit is not so good. The little colors on the chart jump from 8.1 to 8.3 in different hues of green. The little digital Hannah meters are nice but you have to calibrate them which means buying the calibration fluids.
Otherwise, I have not found a PH test kit that I liked. The Salifert alk kit is good.