Low Ph?
- Thread starter DarkFORCE
- Start date
AZDesertRat
In Memoriam
For reefkeeping especially hard corals get the ones clkwrk suggested.
milkshake
New member
I have a 40gal that has been running for about 8 months now. I have used Seachem Reef for just about all that time until a little over a month ago. Since that time I have noticed the PH drop to
7.6 range. I have just began to use Seachem Reef once again. I went to the Chemistry Forum and asked Randy about my PH problem and he said to used limewater at a 1-2%. He also said not to use any buffers (his suggestion/opinion).
7.6 range. I have just began to use Seachem Reef once again. I went to the Chemistry Forum and asked Randy about my PH problem and he said to used limewater at a 1-2%. He also said not to use any buffers (his suggestion/opinion).
moore_rb
New member
Dammit, how did I miss this thread? I love a good flame-fest....
I'll paraphrase all the relevant information contained in this thread:
1) If PH is low, then dissolved CO2 is likely high. (as Randy has attested in far more words than I)
2) If CO2 is already high, Baking soda is NOT the appropriate additive to raise the ph, because, as Chris and Randy pointed out, you are only adding more C02 to a concentration that is already too high to begin with...
So, back to the main question in this thread, "what do I do to increase my ph?" the answer is to first test your carbonate alkalinity:
1) If it is normal (2.5 meq or 6.5dkh or above), then increasing flow and gas exchange (via skimmer or a nice turbulent water overflow) is the best course of action for improving your PH. Drive off the excess CO2, and you will achieve PH Nirvana.
2) If alk is low in combination with PH, then a greater hydroxide ion concentration is needed in your water. A kalk drip, or washing soda (or baked baking soda) is the best course of action for raising both your alkalinity, and accordingly, your PH.....
I'll paraphrase all the relevant information contained in this thread:
1) If PH is low, then dissolved CO2 is likely high. (as Randy has attested in far more words than I)
2) If CO2 is already high, Baking soda is NOT the appropriate additive to raise the ph, because, as Chris and Randy pointed out, you are only adding more C02 to a concentration that is already too high to begin with...
So, back to the main question in this thread, "what do I do to increase my ph?" the answer is to first test your carbonate alkalinity:
1) If it is normal (2.5 meq or 6.5dkh or above), then increasing flow and gas exchange (via skimmer or a nice turbulent water overflow) is the best course of action for improving your PH. Drive off the excess CO2, and you will achieve PH Nirvana.
2) If alk is low in combination with PH, then a greater hydroxide ion concentration is needed in your water. A kalk drip, or washing soda (or baked baking soda) is the best course of action for raising both your alkalinity, and accordingly, your PH.....
Sounds good. The only thing I'd add is:
1) If it is normal (2.5 meq or 6.5dkh or above), then increasing flow and gas exchange (via skimmer or a nice turbulent water overflow) is the best course of action for improving your PH. Drive off the excess CO2, and you will achieve PH Nirvana.
If you home air has more CO2 than normal in it, you might actually need fresher air to drive out the CO2.
1) If it is normal (2.5 meq or 6.5dkh or above), then increasing flow and gas exchange (via skimmer or a nice turbulent water overflow) is the best course of action for improving your PH. Drive off the excess CO2, and you will achieve PH Nirvana.
If you home air has more CO2 than normal in it, you might actually need fresher air to drive out the CO2.
I'd boost the alkalinity with limewater or baked baking soda to 125-200 ppm CaCO3 equivalents, and long term look for other ways to raise pH as well.
These articles may help:
Solving Calcium and Alkalinity Problems
http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/nov2002/chem.htm
Low pH: Causes and Cures
http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2004-09/rhf/index.htm
These articles may help:
Solving Calcium and Alkalinity Problems
http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/nov2002/chem.htm
Low pH: Causes and Cures
http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2004-09/rhf/index.htm
:thumbsup:
Good luck.
Good luck.
bnlimit10
New member
Well, it looks from all the comments that have transpired since my last comment, first I think there was some miscommunications or perhaps we were arguing completely different points. While Chris was arguing CO2, all I was arguing was ph. Perhaps because he was looking at a tank that is adding co2 while it cycles, which to me seems pointless, as I would never put any SPS in an uncycled tank or a tank that is having chemistry problems. Now that this has come to light I understand where you were coming from.
As far as my barbottom comment Chris, while the water chemistry is similar it is not identical, simply because the substrate is made up of different atoms that can and sometimes do dissolve in solution, therefore affecting water chemistry. The substrate in our tanks while its a pain to take care of and clean it and prevent it from being a nitrate factory, it does act as a buffering system. I would simply suggest that before you do a barebottom tank, you really need to have the basics down and a husbandry routine in place and most newbies into the hobby dont have either.
This is my last 2 cents in this article.
clkwrk
Active member
Sorry bud this was my argument .........
"are you running a barebottom tank, if so you can temporarily raise ph by adding a little baking soda. "
1. additon of baking soda will not raise the ph ( short term) meaing adding baking soda is not a fix for low PH now.
2. You never mentioned to this new reefkeeper that any bakingsoda additon ( baked or not ) will also raise alk.
3. BB tank has nothing to do with any off it . But your advise was if you have a BB tank to raise ph add baking soda.
It is from that point I said for baking soda to have a raising effect it needed to be baked to drive co2 which would give it its ph rising effect while still raising alk like regular baking soda would . But the problem is co2 either because it's a new tank ( which it is ) , high indoor co2 ( doesn't seem to be the case) or insuffecient gas exchange.
Now on the other hand yes adding any alk supplement may eventually raise your PH ( long term) but only if co2 isn't in excess either in the water or the air around the tank and you have good gas exchange.
I have nothing against you I just didn't want to see someone dumping baking soda into their tank thinking it will raise ph . Which it may but it won't in the short term .Which may lead to more baking soda additon causing alk to go thru the roof. Which they were anaware that baking soda also rasies alk because you failed to mention it . See where I going . You now have 15yrs listed experience. Lots of newbies will take that without a grain of salt .
"are you running a barebottom tank, if so you can temporarily raise ph by adding a little baking soda. "
1. additon of baking soda will not raise the ph ( short term) meaing adding baking soda is not a fix for low PH now.
2. You never mentioned to this new reefkeeper that any bakingsoda additon ( baked or not ) will also raise alk.
3. BB tank has nothing to do with any off it . But your advise was if you have a BB tank to raise ph add baking soda.
It is from that point I said for baking soda to have a raising effect it needed to be baked to drive co2 which would give it its ph rising effect while still raising alk like regular baking soda would . But the problem is co2 either because it's a new tank ( which it is ) , high indoor co2 ( doesn't seem to be the case) or insuffecient gas exchange.
Now on the other hand yes adding any alk supplement may eventually raise your PH ( long term) but only if co2 isn't in excess either in the water or the air around the tank and you have good gas exchange.
I have nothing against you I just didn't want to see someone dumping baking soda into their tank thinking it will raise ph . Which it may but it won't in the short term .Which may lead to more baking soda additon causing alk to go thru the roof. Which they were anaware that baking soda also rasies alk because you failed to mention it . See where I going . You now have 15yrs listed experience. Lots of newbies will take that without a grain of salt .
The substrate in our tanks while its a pain to take care of and clean it and prevent it from being a nitrate factory, it does act as a buffering system. [?B]
Actually, I don't think that calcium carbonate substrates do any useful buffering to the water column of reef aquariums. It does not dissolve until the ph drops below 7.5 or so, so it cannot help hold up the pH unless it is dropping below that point. Hopefully, that is rarely the case in a reef.
Actually, I don't think that calcium carbonate substrates do any useful buffering to the water column of reef aquariums. It does not dissolve until the ph drops below 7.5 or so, so it cannot help hold up the pH unless it is dropping below that point. Hopefully, that is rarely the case in a reef.
bnlimit10
New member
Dr Randy- I agree with you as far as we should not have any reef systems drop to that level, but when someone is new and with the constant tinkering, which most people do when they are new to the hobby, it is a possibility and therefore would allow to buffer. I simply mention it, because in my experience most people do not wait long enough to allow for the chemical and or biological reactions from any changes made to fully materialize, instead they add, and add and add stuff to a tank trying to get it to where the LFS or one of us said it should be, and thats when the buffering system comes in to help us out of a bind.
Chris- I understand what you are saying, and now that everything is out in the open, I think we both understand where we came from. I dont know if this happens to you, I know it happens to me, I start writing about a subject, and for somereason or another omit certain things that in my mind are common knowledge, failing to see that perhaps the individual reading it, doesnt know this, and that is my fault. In the future I will try and express my points a little better, but if I do it again I hope you can point my omition out instead of us fighting two different points again.
Chris- I understand what you are saying, and now that everything is out in the open, I think we both understand where we came from. I dont know if this happens to you, I know it happens to me, I start writing about a subject, and for somereason or another omit certain things that in my mind are common knowledge, failing to see that perhaps the individual reading it, doesnt know this, and that is my fault. In the future I will try and express my points a little better, but if I do it again I hope you can point my omition out instead of us fighting two different points again.
moore_rb
New member
I know this thread has pretty much run its course and is close to death, but I thought of a point that is worth highlighting. Randy details this point in great detail in several of his articles, but here is the one-liner:
If you are going to use un-baked Baking soda to increase your carbonate alkalinity, and you want to minimize the associated short term ph drop, then add the baking soda in the morning about an hour after the lights have come on. That way the excess CO2 can be consumed over the course of the day via two factors:
1) Normal gas exchange via flow/turbulence
2) Algae respiration
My system evaporates two gallons a day faithfully. I add Randy's calcium fomula to one gallon of makeup water every night before light's out, and I add the baking soda formula to one gallon of makeup water every morning before work. My 70 runs at 8.2 ph in the morning, and climbs to 8.4-8.5 at lights out, so I don't take the extra time to bake my soda.
If you are going to use un-baked Baking soda to increase your carbonate alkalinity, and you want to minimize the associated short term ph drop, then add the baking soda in the morning about an hour after the lights have come on. That way the excess CO2 can be consumed over the course of the day via two factors:
1) Normal gas exchange via flow/turbulence
2) Algae respiration
My system evaporates two gallons a day faithfully. I add Randy's calcium fomula to one gallon of makeup water every night before light's out, and I add the baking soda formula to one gallon of makeup water every morning before work. My 70 runs at 8.2 ph in the morning, and climbs to 8.4-8.5 at lights out, so I don't take the extra time to bake my soda.
Satori
Cancer Sucks
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7480594#post7480594 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by clkwrk
Okay salt dropped.........But a salt that low on alk and isn't buffered will affect the ph ....Low alk causes low PH.........
There are no diffent chemistries in a BB tank than any other . Chemistry is the same for all tanks . BB tanks don't need different chemistries....
Here is a quote from Dr. Randys DIY recipe. All I am trying to do is correct the information being provided that baking soad will raise a tanks PH. Simply not going to happen unless it is turned into washing soda.
"Recipe #1 is for use in aquaria where the pH is normal to low. It will have a pH raising effect due to the elevated pH of the alkalinity part, as do most of the commercial two-part additives. The rise that you get will depend on the alkalinity in your aquarium, and, of course, on how much you add. If you add on the order of 0.5 meq/l of alkalinity then the pH will rise about 0.15 to 0.35 pH units immediately upon addition (and higher locally before it has a chance to mix into the whole aquarium).
"
Another about washingsoda
"Spread baking soda (594 grams or about 2 ¼ cups) on a baking tray and heat in an ordinary oven at 300 °F for 1 hour to drive off water and carbon dioxide. Dissolve the residual solid in enough water to make 1 gallon total. This dissolution may require a fair amount of mixing. Warming it speeds the dissolution process. This solution will contain about 1,900 meq/L of alkalinity (5,300 dKH). I prefer to use baked baking soda rather than washing soda in this recipe as baking soda from a grocery store is always food grade, while washing soda may not have the same purity requirements. Arm & Hammer brand is a fine choice.
"
My calcium reactor broke and I need to raise the alk a little while I wait for the replacement part, so I have some baking soda in the oven now.
After mixing it with a gallon of water, what's the best way to administer it? I assume a drip would be best, but I don't have the materials at hand to set up a drip so I'll have to just add a little at a time. Would it be reasonable to add 1/2 cup, wait an hour, test, and add more? Or more or less than 1/2 cup? How quickly can I safely raise alk? (err-kH) It's 5.5 now, but I normally like to run it at 9.6.
Thanks in advance!
Mike
**Edit** My pH is at 8.29 so I'm not too concerned with co2, and my calcium is only 375.
Satori
Cancer Sucks
Ok, so I did this. I added 1 cup, which turned out to be too much at once, but luckily there's no bad effects. My pH immediately jumped from 8.29 to 9.52, and my alk (kH) went from 5.1 to 7.7. pH has since dropped back down to 8.42. I'll wait until tomorrow and add 1/4 cup at a time to get it up to 9ish as long as my calcium and pH remain at acceptable levels.
clkwrk
Active member
I would raise it no more than 1dkh a day max . If it was me I would go up 1/2 - 3/4 dkh a day until you reach desired level. For me I just mix in my baking soda with my top off water. I figure out what I want to raise the tank a day and use the amount of baking soda needed daily . When your ATO resivor is empty refill it with the next days addtion of water and baking soda/or washing soda.
clkwrk
Active member
oh also don't forrget to add your consumption and the amount you want to go up. ....... So if you use .4 and want to go up .5 then use enough to bring your tank up .9 ..........Your daily consumption should be pretty close on a daily basis so if you add enough for 1 dkh you will be actually rising .5- .6 while .5- .4 is being consumed.
