Garage1217
GET OFF MY LAWN
I wonder which system she used it in... I believe her main 240 she had did not have an established sand bed. I could be wrong.
Major Problem in my Tank
- Thread starter richardg6409
- Start date
K' Family Reef
New member
if that is researched out about dsb
it will show all sorts of (seemingly unexplainable) problems that can be created... its why one is supposed to be careful to not disturb these ever... think it was dr ron shimek who mentions that metals can get trapped down in there then released into the water column if disturbed... i know when it happened to me i couldnt figure out what was going on - all the parameters were good... final conclusion had to be due to the bed being disturbed.
this was already mentioned
but have also read similar circumstances - where it wasnt until the person finally broke down their 'system' (after not being able to keep anything alive or experiencing 'unexplainable' problems)... when they realized some pennies (or other stuff not meant for a reef) had gotten lodged down in the sand or behind some liverock... this is especially concerning when there are small children around... might be something else to keep in mind if things continue as they are
regards
it will show all sorts of (seemingly unexplainable) problems that can be created... its why one is supposed to be careful to not disturb these ever... think it was dr ron shimek who mentions that metals can get trapped down in there then released into the water column if disturbed... i know when it happened to me i couldnt figure out what was going on - all the parameters were good... final conclusion had to be due to the bed being disturbed.
this was already mentioned
but have also read similar circumstances - where it wasnt until the person finally broke down their 'system' (after not being able to keep anything alive or experiencing 'unexplainable' problems)... when they realized some pennies (or other stuff not meant for a reef) had gotten lodged down in the sand or behind some liverock... this is especially concerning when there are small children around... might be something else to keep in mind if things continue as they are
regards
richardg6409
New member
Hi Everyone
Thanks for the continuing help. All are great suggestions and ideas and I appreciate all the insight.
To answer some questions, I used No-Ich, by Fish Vet-- it is copper free and is reef safe. Many people have used it, I have used it before with no ill effects. But you never know if this batch was contaminated.
Phil, the oxygen was a good suggestion, again if something in the sand died and gave off a toxin, this could explain it, but I feel that the oxygenation was sufficient for the tank.
Pyrrhus, the event is tank wide, using DE halides and the fixture is above the tank and the tank is covered with acrylic. Will check the pumps tonight, no heater--removed it a long time ago as this tank never needed it--alway needs the chiller even in winter. Will get a polypad and some carbon
smadascott, RTN--any medicine for this?? I have access to a lot of chemicals and prescriptions at my company. Or just try to frag and save what remains??
Neptune--DSB is assume is deep sand bed, not really deep, maybe 1-2" on the bottom of the tank and other than the snails and 1 pistol shrimp--no real event that disturbed the sand--normal cleaning only
garage--Roxanne used it in her main display
Will get right on the polypad tonight and pick up on the way home
Thanks
Thanks for the continuing help. All are great suggestions and ideas and I appreciate all the insight.
To answer some questions, I used No-Ich, by Fish Vet-- it is copper free and is reef safe. Many people have used it, I have used it before with no ill effects. But you never know if this batch was contaminated.
Phil, the oxygen was a good suggestion, again if something in the sand died and gave off a toxin, this could explain it, but I feel that the oxygenation was sufficient for the tank.
Pyrrhus, the event is tank wide, using DE halides and the fixture is above the tank and the tank is covered with acrylic. Will check the pumps tonight, no heater--removed it a long time ago as this tank never needed it--alway needs the chiller even in winter. Will get a polypad and some carbon
smadascott, RTN--any medicine for this?? I have access to a lot of chemicals and prescriptions at my company. Or just try to frag and save what remains??
Neptune--DSB is assume is deep sand bed, not really deep, maybe 1-2" on the bottom of the tank and other than the snails and 1 pistol shrimp--no real event that disturbed the sand--normal cleaning only
garage--Roxanne used it in her main display
Will get right on the polypad tonight and pick up on the way home
Thanks
K' Family Reef
New member
probably not necessary (assuming good filtration is employed already)
otherwise great idea every once in awhile
to run some thru the system... one thing it helps to remove are heavy metals from the water column (also nitrates/phosphates, ammonia, copper etc)... its good stuff to have on hand.
otherwise great idea every once in awhile
to run some thru the system... one thing it helps to remove are heavy metals from the water column (also nitrates/phosphates, ammonia, copper etc)... its good stuff to have on hand.
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Garage1217
GET OFF MY LAWN
Strange things like this are the reason I will not go with a dsp ever again. Way to many unknown things that can happen that cannot be explained. Running with a ssb or bb, I have not had one strange occurrence. No corals looking bad one month then looking good the next. No retracted polyps one week and then good the next. Just no strange anomalies that used to plague my old system.
To rule out the sand bed, I personally would remove it totally. Siphon it all out & replace the water. That large of a water change could shock what is still alive, but could eliminate the culprit all together. Or stirring it could cause larger issues. Guess it is a situation of "pick your poison"
To rule out the sand bed, I personally would remove it totally. Siphon it all out & replace the water. That large of a water change could shock what is still alive, but could eliminate the culprit all together. Or stirring it could cause larger issues. Guess it is a situation of "pick your poison"
Richard there are no meds for RTN. It is a hobbiest term for a shock/shut down condition corals can go into. This condition is contagious and can be spread by protiens or bacteria. But it is usually not applicable to LPS or softies.
One thing I have found can stop RTN in it's tracks is take Reef Dip or Lugol's iodine, dip a q tip, then trace the edges of the die off. Every edge. This tends to kill off the agents responsible. I have used it successfully many times. I originally got the tip from Frank Burr and it really works.
One thing I have found can stop RTN in it's tracks is take Reef Dip or Lugol's iodine, dip a q tip, then trace the edges of the die off. Every edge. This tends to kill off the agents responsible. I have used it successfully many times. I originally got the tip from Frank Burr and it really works.
Let's try re-stating the set-up and the problem. Unknown information is shown in bold.
Tank is a 125g with a 50g sump/refugium, 3X150W 14K metal halides, actinic lights, deltec skimmer, chiller. Fish load is a purple tang, helfrich firefish, dracula goby, wrasse, 2 chromis, usual cleanup crew. No copper detected in the water. Spectrapure filters were changed 3 months ago, still showing 0 on the meter. No carbon and no temp spikes. The lights are 6 months old, no phosphates (tested in store). No change in flow, which comes from a closed loop plus 4 koralia 4's.
Amm, Nitrite are 0
Nitrate at 0 on a salifert test
Temp range from 78-79
pH range from 8.25-8.42 (time of day)
Calcium at 410-430ppm
Alk at 9.8-11
Magnesium 1200-1300
The sand depth in the display tank is 1-2". It is not a DSB. The tank contains a pistol shrimp, so it can be assumed that the shallow sand bed has been disturbed on a daily basis since the pistol shrimp was introduced.
In the refugium there is/is not a sand bed, with a depth of depth. The refugium contains name algae, which had/had not recently switched to sexual reproduction and polluted the tank.
There are two children in the house, but they are not believed to have added anything potentially dangerous to the tank.
Things were fine until date, when one or more fish started showing signs of Ich. Richardg6409 (hereafter referred to as Richard) added quantity of No-Ich by Fish Vet, as recommended on the bottle for this size tank?. Richard also turned off the skimmer for time period, then turned it back on.
Time period after the ich treatment and skimmer shut-down, a 15-head copy of Blastomussa started looking poorly. The next to be hit were a purple milli, a neon green birdsnest, and several acros, undatas and montis. The only SPS coral that showed some life as of 05/19 was a nana. A 12" brain showed signs of being unhappy as of 05/19. As of 05/19 the candys, rics, zoos, mushrooms, xenia, clams were not showing any distress yet.
Richard performed approximate number and size water changes by 5/19, and plans to perform 20% water changes on 05/20 and 05/22.
Is there any more data missing?
Tank is a 125g with a 50g sump/refugium, 3X150W 14K metal halides, actinic lights, deltec skimmer, chiller. Fish load is a purple tang, helfrich firefish, dracula goby, wrasse, 2 chromis, usual cleanup crew. No copper detected in the water. Spectrapure filters were changed 3 months ago, still showing 0 on the meter. No carbon and no temp spikes. The lights are 6 months old, no phosphates (tested in store). No change in flow, which comes from a closed loop plus 4 koralia 4's.
Amm, Nitrite are 0
Nitrate at 0 on a salifert test
Temp range from 78-79
pH range from 8.25-8.42 (time of day)
Calcium at 410-430ppm
Alk at 9.8-11
Magnesium 1200-1300
The sand depth in the display tank is 1-2". It is not a DSB. The tank contains a pistol shrimp, so it can be assumed that the shallow sand bed has been disturbed on a daily basis since the pistol shrimp was introduced.
In the refugium there is/is not a sand bed, with a depth of depth. The refugium contains name algae, which had/had not recently switched to sexual reproduction and polluted the tank.
There are two children in the house, but they are not believed to have added anything potentially dangerous to the tank.
Things were fine until date, when one or more fish started showing signs of Ich. Richardg6409 (hereafter referred to as Richard) added quantity of No-Ich by Fish Vet, as recommended on the bottle for this size tank?. Richard also turned off the skimmer for time period, then turned it back on.
Time period after the ich treatment and skimmer shut-down, a 15-head copy of Blastomussa started looking poorly. The next to be hit were a purple milli, a neon green birdsnest, and several acros, undatas and montis. The only SPS coral that showed some life as of 05/19 was a nana. A 12" brain showed signs of being unhappy as of 05/19. As of 05/19 the candys, rics, zoos, mushrooms, xenia, clams were not showing any distress yet.
Richard performed approximate number and size water changes by 5/19, and plans to perform 20% water changes on 05/20 and 05/22.
Is there any more data missing?
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richardg6409
New member
Garage, will hold off on getting rid of the sand, dont want to disturb things further.
Just got back from Aquatouch and picked up the poly filter and the carbon. Going to put them in the sump now.
Karlbob--I like the way you think. Will fill in the missing details as soon as I get out of the sump. Will try to think of anything else I might have forgotten.
Just got back from Aquatouch and picked up the poly filter and the carbon. Going to put them in the sump now.
Karlbob--I like the way you think. Will fill in the missing details as soon as I get out of the sump. Will try to think of anything else I might have forgotten.
bajabum
New member
My experience:
#1 Pistol Shrimp dug under a rock.
#2 If skimmer wasn't pass through then turning it off would have stagnated the water. That alone would cause the problem. ALL my skimmers are gravity fed pass through. They drain on power outage.
Macro Algae??? Calupera (feather/grape) produces a toxin when it dissolves
#1 Pistol Shrimp dug under a rock.
#2 If skimmer wasn't pass through then turning it off would have stagnated the water. That alone would cause the problem. ALL my skimmers are gravity fed pass through. They drain on power outage.
Macro Algae??? Calupera (feather/grape) produces a toxin when it dissolves
richardg6409
New member
Karlbob
The refugium does have a sand bed, maybe 2-3". It is on a reverse light cycle with the tank. The algae is Chaeto. I can not say if it went sexual or not as I do not know how to determine this.
Things were fine until about 4 weeks ago. The first thing I noticed was that the milli was not as lush as normal. This was before I added the purple tang and found some ich. The next thing that was noticed was that the red/green blasto was suffering along one side. I thought it was being stung by the nearby frogspawn, so I moved it to be new location. Everything else looked great at this point. No major alarm bells.
In fact, my birdsnest was growing out of control, almost every day there was another new branch growing and all other colors were just thriving, but these 2 were clearly suffering.
About 2 weeks ago, the ich was spotted. I started the "reef safe" no-ich medicine as per the instructions. (50ml for every 100L of water) I took out 25% of the water volume to make allowance for the water displaced by the live rock. I turned off the skimmer for 3 days, checked the water parameters and found no difference. Skimmer was left off a total of 9 days.
Significant damage was showing up about 1 week ago. The blasto just about died, the milli was bleaching. Last 3-4 days has been the worst, all SPS bleached, frogs and hammers closing up (opened a little today, but nowhere near their normal extension) Brain showing stress, not as full as normal. But the candies just thriving, go figure--although I am just happy some things are still alive
One of my ric's just shot off a baby, I have baby snails visible for the past week. Clams and anemone are thriving. Just today I noticed my neon fungia is getting a bit pale.
I did not change the water during the no-ich treatment, did a water change before and just after and another one just yesterday. All water changes are about 25 gallons, or about 22% of the volume (minus rocks)
bajabum brought up an interesting point about a pistol shrimp. I do have one, but it did not make a mess of the sand, just a small tunnel in one corner of the tank and my tank sand bed is not so deep.
I hope this extra info helps, it really helped to get the summary and the missing pointed that were in bold---thanks Karlbob
The refugium does have a sand bed, maybe 2-3". It is on a reverse light cycle with the tank. The algae is Chaeto. I can not say if it went sexual or not as I do not know how to determine this.
Things were fine until about 4 weeks ago. The first thing I noticed was that the milli was not as lush as normal. This was before I added the purple tang and found some ich. The next thing that was noticed was that the red/green blasto was suffering along one side. I thought it was being stung by the nearby frogspawn, so I moved it to be new location. Everything else looked great at this point. No major alarm bells.
In fact, my birdsnest was growing out of control, almost every day there was another new branch growing and all other colors were just thriving, but these 2 were clearly suffering.
About 2 weeks ago, the ich was spotted. I started the "reef safe" no-ich medicine as per the instructions. (50ml for every 100L of water) I took out 25% of the water volume to make allowance for the water displaced by the live rock. I turned off the skimmer for 3 days, checked the water parameters and found no difference. Skimmer was left off a total of 9 days.
Significant damage was showing up about 1 week ago. The blasto just about died, the milli was bleaching. Last 3-4 days has been the worst, all SPS bleached, frogs and hammers closing up (opened a little today, but nowhere near their normal extension) Brain showing stress, not as full as normal. But the candies just thriving, go figure--although I am just happy some things are still alive
One of my ric's just shot off a baby, I have baby snails visible for the past week. Clams and anemone are thriving. Just today I noticed my neon fungia is getting a bit pale.
I did not change the water during the no-ich treatment, did a water change before and just after and another one just yesterday. All water changes are about 25 gallons, or about 22% of the volume (minus rocks)
bajabum brought up an interesting point about a pistol shrimp. I do have one, but it did not make a mess of the sand, just a small tunnel in one corner of the tank and my tank sand bed is not so deep.
I hope this extra info helps, it really helped to get the summary and the missing pointed that were in bold---thanks Karlbob
30reef
New member
I don't like to add any type of medication to a tank that contains corals. I am thinking the meds killed off something other than the intended parasite which fouled the water. This in conjunction with the shock of shutting off the skimmer for a period of time was too much for the corals to bear all at once. Maybe it affected the zooxanthellae (sp?) which caused some of your bleaching?
I would recommend somehow lessening the light intensity for a while if you are going to use carbon and a poly filter pad at once, the increased clarity of the water will cause a bleaching event in itself. I hope you catch this in time, I should have mentioned this yesterday. Aquatouch should also have warned you in advance.
I like to use carbon all of the time. TwoPartSolution.com sells high quality carbon in bulk really cheap. Phil may even have some left over FS.
I would recommend somehow lessening the light intensity for a while if you are going to use carbon and a poly filter pad at once, the increased clarity of the water will cause a bleaching event in itself. I hope you catch this in time, I should have mentioned this yesterday. Aquatouch should also have warned you in advance.
I like to use carbon all of the time. TwoPartSolution.com sells high quality carbon in bulk really cheap. Phil may even have some left over FS.
richardg6409
New member
30reef, thanks for letting me know about the light. Should I reduce the total intensity or the duration or both??
By the time I added the pads last night, only the actinics were on, the halides had already shut off
By the time I added the pads last night, only the actinics were on, the halides had already shut off
richardg6409
New member
Phil--that is a good idea on using layers.
richardg6409
New member
Just a quick update, this evening everything seems a little better. The frogspawn and hammer are extending a little more, the few sps I still have are not bleaching as quickly. It is really amazing how clear the water is with the carbon--good thing 30reef mentioned adjusting the lighting. Will do another water change and let everyone know how things are progressing
I'm starting to suspect that leaving the skimmer off for nine days may have had something to do with this. I know some people run skimmerless tanks, but for corals accustomed to a skimmer, I think nine days may have been too long to have stuff building up in the water.
It's great to hear that things are starting to recover. I might have to try the carbon trick myself, some time. I have run poly-filter on occasion, just by wrapping a wad of it around a powerhead intake, and it's amazing how much garbage it picks up.
Come to think of it, covering an intake could lead to cavitation in the powerhead. I probably shouldn't do that any more.
It's great to hear that things are starting to recover. I might have to try the carbon trick myself, some time. I have run poly-filter on occasion, just by wrapping a wad of it around a powerhead intake, and it's amazing how much garbage it picks up.
Come to think of it, covering an intake could lead to cavitation in the powerhead. I probably shouldn't do that any more.
richardg6409
New member
Karlbob, it could very well be true. I did test the water for the usual parameters while the skimmer was off and everything was fine, but there could have been something that they did not like.
The clarity of my water now is amazing using the carbon, however--it make me all the sadder to see the decimation in the tank even clearer than before.
The clarity of my water now is amazing using the carbon, however--it make me all the sadder to see the decimation in the tank even clearer than before.
richardg6409
New member
Still more improvement today. The deterioration seems to have slowed. Probably most of the SPS will be a total loss, but the brain and the frogspawn seem happier. I will continue with the carbon and poly--do 2 more 20% water changes on Sunday and Wednesday and hopefully this episode will pass. Will want to get a cheap sps frag of something to test in about 2-3 weeks and see how it does. If all goes well, I guess I can look forward to repopulating the tank.
30reef
New member
It's good to hear things are stabilizing, are you running the poly filter too? If so, what color is it changing? You might want to change out the carbon if you are seeing a clarity improvement, it may be loaded with who knows what kinds of toxins, although carbon is usually not known to release them back into the water.
I bet you now realize why to dim the lights for a while, running carbon for the first time is like adding more bulbs.
What kind of salt do you use? Curiosity mainly. I liked TMPro when I could get it, RSCPro was a close second.
I don't remember reading if you used any GFO or not. GFO is another avenue you can visit if you don't yet use it, it will bring your phosphates down to unmeasureable amounts and do wonders for coral growth and color. The product itself and the equipment to run it is also very reasonable. Starting out with very small amounts at first is critical to SPS survival though. The sudden drop in phosphates will trigger all sorts of problems.
I bet you now realize why to dim the lights for a while, running carbon for the first time is like adding more bulbs.
What kind of salt do you use? Curiosity mainly. I liked TMPro when I could get it, RSCPro was a close second.
I don't remember reading if you used any GFO or not. GFO is another avenue you can visit if you don't yet use it, it will bring your phosphates down to unmeasureable amounts and do wonders for coral growth and color. The product itself and the equipment to run it is also very reasonable. Starting out with very small amounts at first is critical to SPS survival though. The sudden drop in phosphates will trigger all sorts of problems.
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