Mandarin in Trouble

[plaz]

I bought a young pair of Green Mandarins close to a month ago (everything has been done to try to prepare for them, including a 180 gallon reef with DSB, 65 gallon and 20 gallon refugiums). They have been really happy, eating like crazy in the QT with plenty of live rock and a refugium.

Yesterday morning the female mandarin did not get up as usual (she has been very lethargic for a few days). Even with the light on, she just acted like she couldn't get up. The PH in the QT had dropped to 7.8 overnight. So... I panicked and decided to move them to the main tank. To my surprise (dismay), she let me pick her up gently with my hand and put her in the transport bag. I acclimated her relatively quickly (had been using water from the main tank for QT changes). When I got the male out, I realized it was just the female that was sick - it took removing all the rock to catch him! She let me lift her from the bag onto a large rock. I kept the tank lights off for several hours and she stayed on her rock.

When I turned the actinics on, I was a little optimistic because she turned to different directions every little while. Finally, she made it down to the sandbed. She didn't eat all day (even when I shot live brine beside her with the baster - which she normally loves).

I am now pretty sure her problem is a very difficult pregnancy. I was afraid I was going to loose her several times, then she would rally a little. The male found her last night and was unbelievably sweet! He circled her, laid down beside her, nudged her and hoverd over her when he saw my yellow tang. This brought her around a little. He coached her up to the edge of the rock (then he decided to go explore for bugs again). He came back displaying the same behaviour a few times. It wa very sweet, but sad. She is just having a difficult time. I keep reading about them chasing each other before they spawn - so, something must be wrong. I can't find anything about the time before when the female is carrying the eggs.

Hoping the breeders out there can give me some insight (or maybe just a little hope that this will turn out okay)!

Thanks for reading!

 

[plaz]

She is still about the same - laying on the sand, but does move around in about a 6" - 8" area. I just checked on her and there is a semi transparent round sac like thing about 2" away from her on the sand. It almost looks like someone "blew a little bubble." It is about 1/3 the size of a green pea - but reflects some pink - is oblong. I don't know if that is related or not.

 

[mwp]

plaz, I admit it, I'm stumped. Other than listlessness, what symptoms does your female mandarin exhibit? What observations have you made that lead you to believe this is problem is linked to reproductive difficulties?

It sounds to me more like a classic case of mandarin starvation / malnutrition.

FWIW,

MP

 

[plaz]

Thanks for your reply. I think I was really hoping it was related since her belly was a little overly rounded in QT - dumb on my part I am sure!

I am now afraid you are right about the starvation/malnutrition. However, she seemed to be doing so well the first few weeks.
The refugium for the QT was stocked with Copepods and fed phyto for a year. Both mandarins hunted and pecked all day and loved it when I supplemented with selcon soaked baby brine - then she seemed to just stop.

Mainly, she is now just listess and won't attempt to eat. She just lays there on the sand. Once or twice a day she moves around up and down the sand hill (slowly - not hunting). She bumps into rocks that I know have bugs on them, then lays back down. The male is all over the tank (eating and "smoking" because of the DSB/sand on rocks).

I've made a little rock pile close to her. Used a baster to shoot enriched brine around her. Injected copepods from a culture (started with OceanPods) in the rock pile and all around. I am frustrated and don't think I can save her. She does now look a little sunken and thin (didn't before the hunger strike).

I guess I will try to catch her off guard while she is asleep and move her into the QT refugium (mud, caulerpa, chaeto and lots of pods). I don't think she will make it - but at least she will be in a really peaceful area full of pods (not that the big tank is scary - our tangs are pretty passive and are afraid of the male for now. No other fish besides a few chromis.

Waited two years to get this pair and thought we were prepared!

Thanks for listening - at least this "therapy" helps get you through these times!

 

[mwp]

Well, what you described sounds MORE like some sort of internal disease. I'm definitely not up on all the crazy diseases that folks throw around nowadays, but basically, some sort of infection that's causing a lack of appetite and swollen abdomen, that seems far more likely than something like the female being "egg bound" this early in the game.

I'll leave it to more experienced folks to suggest any course of action - other than clam perkinsis and a wipeout from bad tap water I haven't personally dealt with disease in what seems like YEARS.

Definitely probably needs to go back to QT and get some sort of treatment if there's any hope of saving her.

FWIW,

MP

 

[plaz]

Well - I had decided to wait until she was asleep and then to put her back into QT (if she made it that long). Then, when the lights went out leaving only the actinics the male mandarin came to her side of the tank. Unbelievably, he was really sweet and just hovered around her and then perched beside her for a few minutes. He actually "coached" her to go to the rock pile I had built (small rocks). I don't know if she was able to eat or was still simply bumping them accidentally. But when I came back to the tank about an hour later, she and he were both half way across the tank (the long way). She was still "crawling" on the sand. He was up a little above and about 3" to the side of her.

I had company tonight, so I just came back down. They made it back to the corner kind of close to where she has spent the last 3 days. He has been trying to get her to do the "spawn dance." The first time, she actually lifted up above the ground 2 or 3 inches with him by her side. The she just gently fell back to the sand. His fins will go up - and he will try to get her attention, then he will go find a bug to eat. When she sees him, her fins now go up, but that's all she can manage before slumping back.

They are definately trying to spawn - but not having much luck. They made if bpard of the way down the tank again. She managed to get her head and half of her body up - then back down.

I really need to go to bed and stop obsessing over them. Anway, I can't see that moving her tonight now. But I think I will turn the room lights out so she can get some rest. I wish I knew more about these fish...

 

[2divers]

I had to move my male into my fuge. My pair have been together in my tank for over a year. Recenly my blue chromis have become aggresive and so some of them are hiding under a protected rock ledge where the mandarins would retreat to eat. She is still eating like a pig and he has slowly thinned. He has only been there 2 days so I dont know if it will help him. They courted, circled each other and slept together. Beautiful relationship! Sad, real sad.

 

[plaz]

That is sad. I hope it helps and I certainly wish them a speedy recovery!!!

I still don't know what has been wrong with my female, but things are still looking slightly better. After her attempt at swimming with him last night, she collapsed in exhaustion. He continued to pursue her and finally pushed underneath her to try and get her up. She had no energy left at all. They both went to sleep when I turned the room lights off (her where she had plopped and him... in the rocks).

So... I changed plans again. I lifted her out before she woke up this morning and put her in the fuge connected to the QT. Again, I thought she was a goner because she just stayed where she flopped. This afternoon, she is on the other side of the fuge exploring. I HOPE she is eating (still not hunting and pecking like before... but it looks like she may be eating a few tiny bugs once in awhile). She is really thin compared to 4 or 5 days ago. But at least her eyes and body are moving now... so, I am hopeful.

He is happy as can be in the new tank! I'll see if he looks for her when the halides go out... for now, he is just exploring and eating (knows no fear... even of the giant tangs)!

Keep us posted on your pair! Again, wishing them the best!