Marine pure

[ajholms0427]

As I'm setting up my new 57 gallon system, I have been watching different videos and doing some research. I came across an article about marine pure leaching aluminum into tanks.

Does anyone have experience with this?

Also if there isn't an issue with aluminum, is there such thing as too much marine pure? I have two 8x8x4 brick and about 100 spheres from a previous build that I would want to use.

 

[mcgyvr]

Its an aluminosilicate ceramic..
Some have reported elevated levels with ICP testing (whos results are already debatable)
However the testing cannot determine the difference between what would essentially be a harmless form vs what is thought to be the harmful form..
There is no data proving it causes any problems or leaches anything harmful into the water.. Just lots of speculation/assumptions/false alarms..

You can't have too much marine pure..

 

[homer1475]

From my reading the marine pure that was leaching aluminum were knockoffs. I've had MP in my tank since day one and have had ICP testing with no elevated levels of AL.

 

[RioReefr]

From my reading the marine pure that was leaching aluminum were knockoffs. I've had MP in my tank since day one and have had ICP testing with no elevated levels of AL.

I can personally attest to this. Before purchasing MP, I did my due diligence and made sure I purchased from a reputable place -- MarineDepot. I would stay away from a place Amazon (where MANY products are faked or misrepresented!)

Watch some of the youtube videos, REAL MarinePure should displace water and sink. The fake stuff doesn't do this.

BTW, since switching over to MP have seen nothing but positive results in my tank. I am sold on the product.

 

[reefgeezer]

I've noticed that more people are starting to use Marine Pure Blocks. At the risk of being accused of hijacking the thread...

Why do people use them? Are they better than plain old porous rock for nitrate control? Do they address other nutrient problems that plain old porous rock don't? Or are they just a replacement where a lot of plain old rock is not desired? Or is it something else?

 

[Vinny Kreyling]

There is a very substantial increase of available pores for denitrification with these blocks.

 

[mattgumaer]

I'm curious also about the benefit in tanks with a fair amount of sand and live rock. My assumption is that it provides a ton of surface area on which bacteria can colonize. But, is the typical tank 'surface area limited'? By this I mean, if a tank consistently has no ammonia and nitrite, adding Marine Pure wouldn't seem to 'help' that part of the nitrogen cycle.

Put another way, if you drop a Marine Pure block into a fully cycled tank that is chugging along, what is the Marine Pure going to do for you? Can it reduce nitrate? I know very little about the potential bacterial reduction of nitrate but, at least from what little I've read, it sounds like this takes place in areas of little/no oxygen. Given how porous Marine Pure is, it seems unlikely that such 'zones' would exist in the blocks.

I'm the exact opposite of an expert on this subject but, I am curious.

Matt

 

[mcgyvr]

There is a very substantial increase of available pores for denitrification with these blocks.

um...well.....

They post data on their "nitrification" performance (ammona/nitrite to nitrate).. but don't seem to post any "data" on their "denitrification" performance..

 

[jmm]

I remember Marine Depot doing a comparison between Marine Pure blocks and several other filter media but it was a long time ago. Maybe you can look it up.

The large thick blocks located in a low-flow area of the sump are supposed to be anaerobic and can reduce Nitrates to Nitrogen gas. Marine Pure has studies on this. I have two in the refugium section of my sump and back when I tested for Nitrate the readings were alway very, very low. I'll test again and get back to this thread.

 

[mattgumaer]

I remember Marine Depot doing a comparison between Marine Pure blocks and several other filter media but it was a long time ago. Maybe you can look it up.

The large thick blocks located in a low-flow area of the sump are supposed to be anaerobic and can reduce Nitrates to Nitrogen gas. Marine Pure has studies on this. I have two in the refugium section of my sump and back when I tested for Nitrate the readings were alway very, very low. I'll test again and get back to this thread.

At least the Marine Pure 'Owners Manual' on BRS links to a study dated 10/2/12 says they conducted a study that found 'MarinePure bio-media was able to eliminate significantly more harmful ammonia and nitrites and convert it to nitrate'. With regard to nitrate removal, they say 'Nitrate removal is beyond the scope of this experiment, but it is usually accomplished by water changes, plants & algae using it as fertilizer, or another class of bacteria (anoxic) converting the nitrate to nitrogen gas which will leave the tank'. This is the only study I could find on Marine Pure's site as well.

BRS did some testing in one of its 'BRS Investigates' videos with inconclusive results but, all tanks tested, including the control, which was just a glass aquarium with no filter, live rock or sand of any kind, ended up at about the same nitrate level at the test's conclusion. One interesting possibility is that while the nitrate in the water column may have been the same in both tanks, the 'control' may have had more nitrogen tied up on bacterial bio-mass while the Marine Pure could have removed it from the system. But, who knows?

Ultimately, it would seem that the 'proof' of any nitrate reduction is anecdotal at best. I would think the company would be strongly motivated to prove Marine Pure's nitrate reduction potential if it could, so, I would guess they've tried but simply can't demonstrate any significant nitrate reduction, but, maybe I'm too cynical.

I realize we do many things in the hobby based on anecdotal evidence but, I think it is important to recognize when we're doing this and be careful about suggesting things are scientific fact or are proven through reliable studies.



Matt

 

[reefteaser]

About 2 years in use and no ill effects noted. I’m using 2 (overkill) large blocks in an Emerald 39 sump/115gal mixed reef display. Nitrates consistently .2-.5. I changed out my sand a few months ago (Reeflakes—also love ‘em). Nitrates spiked up slowly to 5-10 over a few weeks, then back down and stayed there.
I set up a Fusion 30L in my office a year ago and stuffed the rear chamber with the smaller blocks. It’s a light bio load, but I’ve never measured ANY nitrates.
I’m sold on this product.

 

[jmm]

At least the Marine Pure 'Owners Manual' on BRS links to a study dated 10/2/12 says they conducted a study that found 'MarinePure bio-media was able to eliminate significantly more harmful ammonia and nitrites and convert it to nitrate'. With regard to nitrate removal, they say 'Nitrate removal is beyond the scope of this experiment, but it is usually accomplished by water changes, plants & algae using it as fertilizer, or another class of bacteria (anoxic) converting the nitrate to nitrogen gas which will leave the tank'. This is the only study I could find on Marine Pure's site as well.

BRS did some testing in one of its 'BRS Investigates' videos with inconclusive results but, all tanks tested, including the control, which was just a glass aquarium with no filter, live rock or sand of any kind, ended up at about the same nitrate level at the test's conclusion. One interesting possibility is that while the nitrate in the water column may have been the same in both tanks, the 'control' may have had more nitrogen tied up on bacterial bio-mass while the Marine Pure could have removed it from the system. But, who knows?

Ultimately, it would seem that the 'proof' of any nitrate reduction is anecdotal at best. I would think the company would be strongly motivated to prove Marine Pure's nitrate reduction potential if it could, so, I would guess they've tried but simply can't demonstrate any significant nitrate reduction, but, maybe I'm too cynical.

I realize we do many things in the hobby based on anecdotal evidence but, I think it is important to recognize when we're doing this and be careful about suggesting things are scientific fact or are proven through reliable studies.



Matt

It's refreshing to see a scientific skepticism on this site but a little disappointing to see cynical conclusions drawn from "doubt" alone. Marine Pure's website does list tests that show results for nitrite removal with the plates and spheres. Due to their small volume and free-flowing characteristics they were designed for this and their results match those of BRS. They also state that the blocks are nitrite reducers in an active system and nitrate reducers in a passive system. I would assume (dangerous in a scientific discussion) that a passive system is one where the water is not forced through them. Placed sideways and flat at the bottom of a chamber designed for a refugium where the water can either "soak" into them or pass freely over them on its way to the next chamber would be my definition of a passive system. Which is the way I have them. Now, how active and how passive a setup is would alter the test results. How much water passes through the sump would be the variable that MarePure would have to test and they would need to test a lot of variations.

I realize that not many people on this site could have the resources to test all the variations in a publishable and verifiable manner. Thus, almost everything on this discussion is likely to be anecdotal. And the anecdotes of many, when collected, can only suggest the outcome scientifically, not define it. But that's what the discussion is for. That's what this forum is for.

I said I would test my system for nitrate (not something I usually worry about) and I have. The results are slightly more than 0 but much less than 5. And I will add that it is a fish only system of 120 gallons plus sump volume and it has not had a water change in more than a year. That's my anecdotal report with two blocks and no algae fueled refugium. YMMV.

 

[der_wille_zur_macht]

jmm - while I totally believe that your system has low nitrate levels, I have a hard time attributing that to this specific product. I've had plenty of tanks without any special configuration (shallow sand, rock, sump, skimmer, infrequent water changes) that had similarly low nitrate levels. Would you be willing to take the blocks out and test again in a few months?

If you're disappointed in Matt's cynical conclusion but appreciate his skepticism, can you at least appreciate how us skeptics might be just as disappointed at your positive assumptions?

 

[jmm]

jmm - while I totally believe that your system has low nitrate levels, I have a hard time attributing that to this specific product. I've had plenty of tanks without any special configuration (shallow sand, rock, sump, skimmer, infrequent water changes) that had similarly low nitrate levels. Would you be willing to take the blocks out and test again in a few months?

If you're disappointed in Matt's cynical conclusion but appreciate his skepticism, can you at least appreciate how us skeptics might be just as disappointed at your positive assumptions?

I'm not positive. I'm just reporting it. It is, like Matt said, not scientific, just anecdotal. And like I said there are so many variables.

MarinePure doesn't go into flow, sump water depth, or anything else. If I described my setup you would see some things that resembled yours, some that didn't. The sheer number of variables from sand depth, fish load, rock size and type, protein skimmer, carbon volume and frequency of change, salinity, ad infinitum, is just too great to blame or credit any one item to nitrate level. I have other tanks. They have a lot more nitrate than this one does. They have macro algae in a lighted refugium. They get more frequent water changes. They don't have MarinePure blocks. Please don't think I think I know all the answers. I most definitely don't. I'm only adding my anecdotal info to the swarm.

As to the question you pose: I don't want to mess with anything that's working. The fish are more important than the answer to this question. They all have good color, a good appetite and have doubled in size in the last few years. None have ever been sick. That's something I don't want to screw around with. I have good luck in the other tanks, too so I won't attribute it to the MarinePure blocks, but I wanted them to eliminate the need for a lighted 'fuge. And, as far as nitrate problems, I don't have any so I proved a planted 'fuge is not necessary for that. Wasn't this thread started (or at least evolved into) to find out opinions on MarinePure media? We all know opinions are like... Oh well, we won't go there.

 

[reefgeezer]

My $.02...

So Marine pure is a substrate that has a crap load of very small pores. Put it in an area that is highly oxygenated you get ammonium/nitrite reduction kind of like old school bioballs, but maybe more efficient... Put it in an area where the interior becomes virtually devoid of O2 and you get some nitrate reduction. Nothing special, magic, or unexpected. It seems this product has no other purpose as it doesn't address any other nutrients, provide environments for plankton populations, or provide food for the system. So it is a tool in the bag for nitrogen compound control. As it seems to be kind of expensive and occupies some substantial space in a sump, my question is what is the proper application of this tool? Maybe a fish only tank with fiberglass decorations... a reef tank with very little rock in the DT... etc...

 

[steamman]

I just started using Marine Pure a couple months ago in a restarted 150 with 30 sump. I believe I used a gallon of the cubes in the sump.

I don't want to use as much live rock as I usually stock my tank with. This leaves for more room in the display tank for livestock. I don't know what the pound for pound ratio is exactly. I never believe substrate no matter how deep or low flow can substantially reduce nitrate after trying for many years to find the magic bullet. IMHO if you want bacteria to reduce nitrates you need to feed a carbon source regularly. Not to get off topic.


I do know that the blocks are much more porous than any live rock. I have never tested for aluminum leaching.

 

[mattgumaer]

I read a lengthy string of posts on another forum regarding Marine Pure. On it, some posters seem convinced Marine Pure: 1) lowered their nitrates; 2) raised their nitrates, potentially due to efficient conversion of ammonia to nitrite, then nitrate; 3) left their nitrates unchanged; 4) raised their aluminum, with no ill effects; 5) raised their aluminum with adverse effects, particularly on soft coral; and 6) could not raise aluminum levels since the material is 'inert'.

What to take from all this, Marine Pure may lower nitrate under some set of circumstances that are complex enough that it is difficult to fully describe/reproduce. Chances of nitrate reduction may be increased by putting the blocks in a low flow area and adding an organic carbon source.

'Aluminum' may be added to your tank water under some circumstances. This may also depend on things like flow, water chemistry and 'life' in the tank that could mechanically or chemically affect the blocks. Whether or not the specific aluminum compound(s) that may be added to the tank could adversely affect certain livestock at particular levels is unknown.

Ultimately, in my non-expert opinion, Marine Pure is not needed to reduce ammonia to nitrite to nitrate in the vast majority (maybe all) systems because those systems already have enough surface area to host sufficient bacteria to do the job. I've had dozens of freshwater and saltwater systems over the years, have never used Marine Pure and have never had a system that wasn't fully capable of cycling to the point where ammonia and nitrite became undetectable.

If there were some non-anecdotal evidence that a couple of Marine Pure blocks in a low flow area of my sumps would lower my nitrates, I'd probably buy a couple. For better or for worse, I personally probably wouldn't worry too much about the potential for 'aluminum' leaching into the water. But, honestly, I'm not sure what impact the reduction of nitrate in my tanks would have on them. I can't say that my tanks are 'suffering from' their current nitrate levels (which I haven't even measured in some time).

Whether I'm cynical or just have a healthy skepticism, who knows? But, I do think there is some 'snake oil' in our hobby. I also think there are a fair number of products based on sound theory with little/no experimental evidence to confirm their efficacy. I would personally probably put Marine Pure in this second category as it relates to nitrate reduction.

I realize reef keeping is very much a small, niche hobby but, I hope our manufacturers and suppliers will do their best to provide reliable and accurate information about their products.

Matt

 

[d-man]

So now the question, since LR is less porous would it be better for NITRATE reduction to use LR where more flow is active since the center of the rocks will be more anoxic, or will this not work any better than the blocks?