Maturity Issues

Hi Carl:

I say rearrange with a bit of tongue in cheek for there is not massive rearrangement very often, and if you look at my tanks, its obvious they are pretty much set in place simply by the growth of the corals. I'll email you a recent photo. But, there are maybe once a year or so big rearrangements. simply due the size the corals become with resultant brakage. I think your way is probably better, but I can never bear to get rid of any of my live rock because it is too pretty and has too much life on it.

Another thing - although my tanks have changed and many others have been set up over the years and also disappeared, and I have experimented a lot, my main system is more or less a result of your teachings. It was successful in 1992 and continues to be so today and I try not to mess with the basic success, just tweaking, modifying, and expounding bit by bit, as I am sure you have done, too. I almost never fragment out of my big tank unless theintegrity of other corals is being compromised, mainly because I likebig sexual mture colonies...now I want regular spawning and that is the next major goal for me.

By the way, I was cleaning out a drawer this morning and found an old folder that is directly relevant to this thread. IT was written on an old dot matrix printer, so I know is is old. But, check this out...I quote
"Eric,

Dick Perring offered this recipe, saying some corals absolutely need to be fed - i.e. Favia spp., which go into recession if they aren't fed in his tanks. This seems to be a great thing to add to the feeding chapter.

Would you call Dick and confirm this recipe and see if we can provide a bit more guidance on quantities, types of fish roe, etc.?

Dick Perrin, prioneer coral farmer and founder of Tropicorium in Romulus Michigan uses and recommends this formula as an all-purpose food for corals

Table shrimp
Fish roe
Egg yolk, boiled and mashed
Liquid Multi-Vitamins
Vitamin B12 (crushed tablet)
Reef Plus (SeaChem)

Perrin recommends blending or shredding with the shrimp, then mixing in the other ingredinets with a small amount of clean artifical seawater. The coral chow can then be fed immediaely, using apoultry baster to direct the mixture to the individual corals. It can also be frozen in cubes in plastic ice cube trays for future use. Perrin believes the Reef Plus supplement (vitamins, amino acids, and fatty acids) makes the food more palatable to corals, triggering a feeding response.

This is, of course, a version of my coral food with the addition in my food of a more diverse group of foods, including newer and better products, and the Selcon being the better substitute of Reef Plus. I will repost this part in the coral feeding thread, too.

Interesting, isn't it?
 
Eric,

Whatever happened to Dick anyway? I have not seen or heard from him since I decided to become "Public" again. Yes, I remember those early discussions on coral / fish foods. Seems like a very long time ago now. Chas had a recipe, Dick had one, etc, etc. Its funny, when I developed my formula I basically went down to the seafood market and got some white fish, some fatty fish, lots of mollusks, shrimp, crabs, lobster, etc and I came home, added Super Selco, earthworms (washed), nannochloropsis, brine shrimp nauplii, copepods. B-complex and vitamin C. (the nanno, BS & pods all grown here at home). Then I put the whole smelly lot in the blender and punched "Liquify." The truth was, I had absolutely no idea what the corals wanted to eat so I figured if I put everything in, there would be something for everyone. It seemed to work so I stuck with it.

Well, darn it Eric, I had an article all outlined in my head about the watchers VS the piddlers and how the idea of re-potting should be expounded on. Rats ... back to the drawing board. LOL
 
It probably still has merit, and I sure would like to see some articles coming from your head and pen (or keyboard as the case might be).
 
Oh, and as for Dick, I would ask some of the guys up in that area. Dick seems to have largely given the business to his son, and I have heard confirmation that this is true..so he is sort of semi-rretired I guess and spending time with his million and one other hobbies, I imagine. I should drop him a line and see cause I miss hearing and seeing him. I'll be in the area next spring for a lecture and will try and stop in and see him. I hate losing masters like that.
 
Since I previously mentioned the educational value of watching a tank mature, I thought I'd give you an update on Ally's 12 gallon reef.

Ally is very excited tonight because her 6 Stomatella snails are now around 600! The glass, live rock and every other surface in the tank has 4 or 5 babies per square inch. She thinks its very cool and she has already noticed that no algae cell is safe.
 
I have read through much of this thread, and the information offered here is quite excellent. I have learned about the benefits of allowing the "fauna" to develop over a period of time like 6 mos. to a year, and balancing "predatory" inputs carefully.

However, I have already made the "mistake" of "firing it up" in a hurry, as is typical of us newbies, before I got into "reef surfing" research. I have done a tremedous amount of "research" on every aspect of reef keeping, and I expect that will go on forever.

I am trying to keep enough of the bethnic critters and substrate fauna, to at least keep the substrate properly functional "for itself".

I have a 16 gal. tub for a "refugium", with a small amount of barely alive rock from the display tank, and an inch of misc. aragonite, but no significant macroalgae in it yet. It has spawned some stomatella and amphipods on it's own, not a lot, but it is happy and at least offering "dilution" to the 27 gal. hex display. The intent is for the "refugium" to supply food for the main tank primarily, and any nutrient processing it produces is welcome. I have snails and hermits in both the main tank and "fuge", no other predators in the fuge.

I'm giving this info. to set-up for several questions that I have. So a little more:

I am running about 25X flow in the main tank, and all of this thru the fuge as well. It is well dipersed in both ( no laminar flow problems ).

I have an unusual layering in the main display substrate, intended to avoid any "sand storm" problems, which it does, hopefully not to the detriment otherwise to the "sandbed".

The substrate is all aragonite, with 1 1/2" of 1-2mm at the surface, and 3" of oolitic sand under that.

I have a little bit of everything in the display tank, as this is an experiment in preperation for a much larger tank, that and typical newbie excitement with everything, before having learned enough to know better.

Anyway, I have Xenia ( prolific ), Montipora, Acropora, mushrooms, open brain coral, 2 clowns, 2 damsels, 1 bangaii cardinal. The tank has been up for 10 mos. I am just barely getting away with 96 watt pc lighting, and a seaclone skimmer ( not too happy with the seaclone ).

And so now I have a question. I basicaly want to reestablish the "fauna" in the substrate, but I have my cart in front of my horse. I started with Inland Aquatics "kit", and I still have some thick and thin legged microstars in the tank, although mostly in and on the liverock, not the substrate. A few pods, a very few pods, in the display tank, more in the fuge, and worm tracks in the oolitic sand, and everything is working fine so far. I even have several tiny featherdusters, that grew up out of the substrate.

The interesting part here is that I also have a peppermint shrimp, two quite large brittle stars, and a goodly number of blue legged hermits, a couple of scarlet hermits and lots of snails. Just recently, also, a good sized black cucumber who does not burrow, but very slowly "vacuums" the surface of the substrate.

The surface of the substrate and live rock is always clean, no algae, no detritus, no anything!

I have found very little during my "searching" in the way of predation on substrate fauna, and so now the questions.

Firstly, and this is primarily for Eric, but anyone chime in of course, am I shooting myself in the foot with this coarser 1-2mm gravel at the surface?

Secondly, can I reseed the substrate for the purposes of keeping the substrate functional, or am I in trouble because of predaton from the shrimp, stars, and cucumber, as well as any of the fish? I never see any of the fish within an inch of the substrate while the lights are on ( I am viewing ).

I would love to have a goby-shrimp symbiosis, or mandarin in the near future, and I need to keep the substrate healthy and supply food for the new animal. I will also eventually move the sps out and stick to soft and lps in this tank.

Should I seed both the display and fuge, or only the fuge?

Any suggestion as to the specific fauna I should seed with. Hopefully I can make up somewhat for my original error.

Sorry this got so long, hopefully I didn't leave anyone guessing about my conditions.

Thanks to anyone who made it through this terribly long post. and everyone else who posts here regardless. This is one of the best threads I have stumbled upon. > barryhc :)
 
The sand grain size at the top is fine. What is happening, IMO, is that you have too much predation and not enough food to sustain the populations of the small critters you want. Hermits, also, IMO, are bad additions to mot reef tanks and especially in refugia. I don't think you need to reseed - I think the "seed" is there, but it is being eaten too quickly, or there is not enough food for them in the substrate to reproduce fast enough.
 
Eric,

Do you have any pictures of your tanks that you could share? I would love to see a few whole tank shots!

Thanks,
Paul

BTW....Great thread....very informative!
 
Eric:

how long has the tank in your gallery been up and running? why aren't your corals bigger with all the feeding? what's up with the white coral in there? is it a skeleton?

Could you describe what else is on this system? refugium, lighting, etc?

Carl
 
Carlos - what white skeleton? There is no dead skeleton in any tank photos. One of the Acropora I recently took outof my tank to fragment weighed over ten pounds and several of them are 16 inches across with 12" branches...I have a photo of my wife holding it from her waist to her chin.

My main tank is lit with a 1000W Sunmaster bulb, 3 Tunzes, a surge tank and a DSB. It is 4 x 4 x 2.5. The other tank is 4 x 2 x 2 lit with 2 400 watt bulbs - curently 10K but has always been 6500K and I will return to those when these burn out. There are two Tunze's plus the overflow from the main tank. I have a 40 gallon refugium, a 40 gallon surge, and a 65 gallon sump with a Dolphin running the skimmer and flow to refugium and a Sequence running a carbon fileter and the surge tank.

My tanks were almost completely wiped out while I was in Australia in 2000, though I was able to save bits and pieces of many of them. My oldest coral is twelve years old. Most of the Acropora are from 2-5 years old. Mind you, I also have 700 gallons of fragments all taken from just the corals in those tanks - several thousand at this point. That's all since May of this year.
 
thank you. i am rereading your book for the third time. learn something new each time. i still have a long road to go.

the picture of your tank with a white "skeleton" about lower 1/3 and 1/3 from left, what is it?

can you post some pictures of the mature tank with the huge corals.

is part of the maturity of a tank all the secondary critters, sponges, foraminifera, DSB critters? also the ability to feed your corals and process the waste?

Carl
 
I have to admit I have real reservations about the feeding article. It's not that you aren't right, Eric - but what I think will happen is that most reefkeepers will come away from that article with the idea they should feed their corals, but will not 'get' that they're going to have to do massively more frequent water changes to compensate for additional nutrients.

In truth, I thought that article should have been titled "If you want to do 10x more water changes, feed your corals and they'll be happier for it".

I think that it's necessary to give equal weight to the downside (much more maintainance). But, you only mentioned the downside one time and indirectly, at that. As if the need for additional water changes were not the direct result of the additional nutrients. So, while you can tell yourself you did explain the consequences, I don't think you did, adequately.

It also bothered me that you chose untypical stoney corals that happen to be fairly happy in a lagoonal (nutrient-rich) biome, rather than typical reef-crest acros most of us want to keep, for your example in the article.

I realize that the vast majority of reef-keepers have relatively small tanks with a few pieces of decorative live rock - and that those tanks probably don't adequately provide a diverse microfauna or cryptic zone.

I think you've understressed the contribution bacteria makes towards providing coral with the tiny amount of additional food they require, beyond what the zoox provide.

Would welcome your comments, Thanks
 
At the stage of the cycle that you start adding herbivores, would an algea grazing fish not compliment other herbivores, while not stopping the tank maturation?

I wanted to cycle my tank for at least 8 months and wanted to add a small cleanup crew and a lawnmower somewhere in the middle. With already cured rock, the initial cycle should be quite short.. would it hurt me in the long run if I added the fish?
 
Wow, this thread took a while to read. I am probably going to get flamed from what I am about to say. I have had fresh water tanks for many years with great success. I have had friends that have salt water tanks and I finally started mine up at the begining of January of 06. I started with a 50 gallon (4'x13"x19"). I was using the stock lighting hoods with 2 15watt bulbs. I also had an aqua clear 500 on there for filtration. I went to the intercoastal here in florida and got a 5 gallon bucket of sand. I put the sand in and added about 20 gallons of water from my friends 2 year old 90 gallon tank. I also gathered some live rocks from the shallow waters in the intercoastal. I had some crabs, a blenny and a sucker type fish that all hitchhiked on the rock. After two days my tank went nuts. The water got cloudy and it started to stink. I had some sponges dying and the rock I gathered had lots of barnacles on it. I shouldnt have thrown everything in there so quickly but I am very impatient. So I took all the rocks out and put them in my back yard. I did a 50% water change and amazingly the blenny, the sucker, and the crabs lived. So I let the tank run a few days and the water actually started to clean itself up. So after about 2 weeks after starting the tank I built a 10gal refugium with three chambers. The first has the new skimmer I bought and the second is a 5" layer of live sand and the third is the return with a mag 3 pump. After about another week (3 weeks after starting the tank) I bought 2 clown fish and some live rock and I put the sucker fish and the blenny back in the ocean. Then I ordered a 260watt PC light setup and added the 15 watt PC on the refugium. Everything is going great and then at the 4 week point I buy a coral beauty and some more live rock. Everything is still great. I do about another 50% water change at the 4 weeks point because I have to move the tank to a new stand I built. So at about 6 weeks I buy some live rock covered in coraline algea and a yellow tang. So I let things sit for about another week or two and then I make a trip down to the keys. Its only about 4 hours from here. So I get some rock with macro algea on it and some brittle stars and decorator crabs and some emerald crabs and I also buy a skunk shrimp. I just did a 20% water change at the 8 week point 2 weeks ago and I also got a auriga butterfly. Everything is doing great. Then a week later I got a sand shifting goby. I have done water tests. I did get some brown algea bloom in the refugium but everything is still doing fine. The skimmer is doing a great job and all the fish are happy and healthy. I feed them mysis shrimp and flakes twice a day. I bet you people must think I am nuts doing this so fast. I always joke around with my buddy who has had a tank for years and he calls my tank the "fast tank". I guess the key to my success is the water changes and only buying live rock from local places instead of getting live rock that needs to be cured. I might have not done this the "conventional" way or the "right" way but so far its working. Its been about 9-10 weeks and everything is just fine. Nothing has died and hopefully nothing will. I am going to let the tank sit for about a month or so. I will post back on here and update my progress.
 
Eric,
I am going to be setting up a new tank from scratch. I will be putting the live rock in the tank along with sand and let cycle and cure in the tank. Should I do water changes or should I let everything runs it course and start to take care of its self? I think it is possible that the water changes will take some of the good things out...Not sure though. Some enlightenment would be good.
Thank you.
 
Eric has moved on. but i can tell you what he might have said.

don't put in the sand until after the rock has cured.

minimal light, good water flow and maximum skimming.

water changes a lot.

Anthony Calfo has a nice section in his book Reef Invertebrates about curing your live rock.

Carl
 
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