Maturity Issues

It makes perfect sence to me about tank disturbances. Every 6 months or so I stir up my tank gravel and all. I don't have a DSB,
But after 33 years with the same tank I still have no large visable
Old Tank Syndromes. I do get cycles that last a few months to a year or so but most things seem to thrive. I never thought the stirring up had anything to do with it but everything looks much better after my man made typhoon. My reef is in a gorgonian phase now, the hard corals are shrinking and all the mushrooms, leathers and gorgonians are growing like weeds. 6 months ago it was the opposite. I think I will make typhoons more often.
Paul
 
I got so excited that early this morning I stirred the entire tank up with a large diatom filter. Visability was about 6" but now it's clear as gin and everything is happy. I love it when I get excited.
Paul
 
Back to our regularly scheduled programming on maturation ...

I think home aquarists not only miss the point but also miss the fun and a wonderful educational experience when they jump straight to the "Old growth forest" stage.

My daughter (she is 5) went with me to MACNA this year. When we returned, she wanted to set up a reef aquarium in her room. I said ok. We set up a 12 gallon nanno and added some cherry-picked Fiji live rock, about 2 dozen snails of half a dozen species, some amphipods, mysids, etc. All in NSW.
She looked at her "Empty" tank and said "When do we put some stuff in it?" I told her we were just going to watch it for a little while. After about a month, she quit asking about "Stuff" because she loves watching her shoals of "Baby shrimp" and all the very busy little critters that make their home in her tank. We will, eventually, be adding coral to her tank when it is ready.
 
Carl - with the right live rock, I'd bet it would turn into one of those tanks such as in Nilsen and Fossa Vol 1. where nothing had been added and it was a true reef tank. I've always wanted to collect my own rock and do that.
 
EricHugo said:
Carl - with the right live rock, I'd bet it would turn into one of those tanks such as in Nilsen and Fossa Vol 1. where nothing had been added and it was a true reef tank. I've always wanted to collect my own rock and do that.

Eric,
You could probably get away with it in your position at the university. If I went and got my own rock off the reef, Fish & Wildlife would confiscate the boat, fine me & maybe even put me in the pokey. :mad2: ... Ummm and if you DO go collect some rock for your research, I'll just come along and be your dive buddy, ok? :cool:

BTW, you met my daughter at MACNA. You can perhaps imagine how "Into" reef aquariums she has gotten. Its really cute.
 
sihaya said:
If I remember correctly... when you're 5 years old, even 2 weeks is an eternity. ;)

Oh good grief ... she has even started the "Are we there yet" on drives to the beach. Five minutes is an eternity for this girl ... much like it is for the average marine aquarist. LOL.
 
Carl, I am going to work on putting together a pre- or post-MACNA field trip to the Flower Garden Banks. I sure would like to dive with you after all these years. I don't have any "research" ongoing that would entail live rock, although I'm sure I could come up with something. ;)
 
eric, sorry i'm jumping in late, but ,if you started with aquacultured rock and true live sand shipped in water and in the tank 36 hrs after being collected would that change the time to maturity? bobt
 
EricHugo said:
Carl, I am going to work on putting together a pre- or post-MACNA field trip to the Flower Garden Banks. I sure would like to dive with you after all these years. I don't have any "research" ongoing that would entail live rock, although I'm sure I could come up with something. ;)

Count me in! I'll be on that dive.
 
Eric,

Do you remember Kathy from Reef Encrustations? She had several reef tanks that were just that ... LR collected, kept in live wells on the boat and put into her tanks within just a couple of hours. Those tanks were amazing to look at.
 
Yes, of course I do. I remember the "to drool over" ads in FAMA, too. Whatever happened to her...drug related, as I recall?
 
EricHugo said:
Yes, of course I do. I remember the "to drool over" ads in FAMA, too. Whatever happened to her...drug related, as I recall?

So I hear. It was very sudden in any case. She and I used to keep close contact by phone & then suddenly one day no more calls & her shop was closed. I really don't know more than what I have heard beyond that.
 
Eric,

You have mentioned you have not experienced "Old tank syndrome" and I have lamented it still happens to me. Interestingly, I have found over the years that the "Cure" for old tank syndrome is to take one third of the live rock out of the tank and throw it in the dumpster. Then I replace it with fresh, cured, live rock leaving 2/3 of the old LR in the tank. Then I take that 2/3 of old rock & BLAST it with a pressure washer (I can see you cringing) fed by old SW from the tank. Then, if its a shallow sand bed, I replace it. Finally, I do a 100% water change and replace the LR and corals to the tank. The tank then acts like a new tank for the next 3 to 10 years. ... And then I have to do it again.

I guess what I have "Discovered" is also what you are calling "The intermediate disturbance hypothesis." If you look in my book, its what I called "Resurrecting" and old tank.

Anyway, this is not actually my point ... What I was wondering is what your maintenance routine is...including additives. I know you have said you use handfuls of Ca & buffers but I don't think I have heard you say what you use and how you dose. I would like to see if something you are doing (that I am not) may extend the time before I have to become a hurricane in my tanks.
 
Carl,

I don't have an explanation other than what I suspect. More or less, I may make rearrangments often enough to change species distribution patterns and thus change water flow, sand areas, light, etc. In my puffer tank, I get Valonia because I cannot put any grazers in the tank besides fish who don't eat it becuase the puffer will crunch any snails or crabs or urchins (but she doesn't touch corals), so I have to manually remove rocks to do it. I think it is close to the same observation you make, and Ron Shimek suggested about a year ago that live rock may become to "stagnant" with coralline coverage to have the same porosity, effeectively sealing the rock to all the different beneficial organisms. I decalcfied a bunch of rock for him to sort through the critters (old, new, and in-between) and although I don't think he's gotten to it, I didn't see any obvious differences...but then again, my rock may not be the rock to use. Maybe we need rock from someone with old tank syndrome. But, it makes sense, even f the pores become packed with detritus instead of coralline. Alternately, it may be the disturbance or "new rock" that winds up shifting the propensity of competitve dominance over time.

My routine is feed ( my food mix above, cyclop-eeze, and DT's oyster eggs, at present) several times a day, and I only add either kalkwasswer (in the small tanks) or calcium chloride and sodium carbonate/bicarbonate to the big tank and the culture tanks - the big tank takes several cups full of dry pellets a day and about 1 cup of carbonate a day! No way to keep up with that using kalkwasser. I do water changes in puffer's tank, but don't do them in the big tank, although sometimes I draw water from the tank for various reasons, and then replace it but we're talking about a very insignificant amount of water in the scheme of the tank. I do use carbon heavily, and have started using ozone - which although I was thrilled with for awhile, am perhaps slightly less thrilled with now as over the past year I am starting to see some declines in sand bed populations and with filter feeding inverts - going to try and circumvent that by feeding even more. I have a calcium reactor on the big tank, but it is (like all my past experiences with calcium reactors) a disappointment and basically a "supplement" to the calcium demand of the tank and just kind of a pain.

The products I use are a commercial soucrce of really great carbon I found that comes in 90 lb bags, calcium chloride in 55 lb bags (usually the 97% pellets, sometimes the 77-80% flakes, depending on prices at order time), and 55 pound bags of a high grade of washing soda (I use Arm and Hammer from the grocery store when I run out in a pinch) and my kalkwasser in Mrs. Wage's pickling lime. Other that the oyster eggs and the cyclop-eeze, I don't add anything to my tanks made by the aquarium industry.
 
Eric,

Hmmm, well, other than brand differences (I use 25 lb bags of Arm & Hammer from the warehouse stores for instance) we do not do anything all that different except that I have recently (in the past 18 months or so) begun using activated carbon much more heavily. I now use 5 lbs of activated carbon in a 400 gallon tank (1.25 lbs per 100 gals) and change it out every third week. The acceleration of coral and corraline growth has been more than a little noticeable since I started socking to carbon to the tanks. It will be many more years though before I notice if any of these tanks are slower to develop "Old tank syndrome" due to the heavier use of carbon.

What I suspect personally is that the much lower organic load due to heavy carbon use will extend the periods between "Hurricanes". I can say with confidence it appears to improve calcification.
 
I think our carbon use is about the same, gallon for gallon. I'm using 7 pounds in 600 gallons through one of the Ocean Clear carbon canisters. I agree on the calcification part, too. Or at least, that's what it appears to do ;)
 
Is it possible that the amount/quality fed to fish/invertebrate size/type differs greatly between the two of you? I for one wish I had a better idea of how much to feed my fish/inverts rather than the 'enough so they eat it all within 2 minutes'. Just seems very highly variable and something where someone could easily overfeed...
 
Mogrash said:
Is it possible that the amount/quality fed to fish/invertebrate size/type differs greatly between the two of you? I for one wish I had a better idea of how much to feed my fish/inverts rather than the 'enough so they eat it all within 2 minutes'. Just seems very highly variable and something where someone could easily overfeed...

Mogrash,

Unless Eric is doing something very different recently, I suspect he and I still feed about the same. We both have our own formulas which amount to a raid on the local fish monger and both formulas are very similar. My formula is never quite the same from batch to batch but the ratios of the different ingredients are similar in each. In my case, it depends on what the local fish market has in stock that day. Then I add Cyclopeze, oyster eggs & some other stuff. As far as quantity, I use the "Jewish grandmother" standard. That is, "Here, eat ... you have only had three helpings ... yes, try some of this too. Oh, there is always room for a little more."

BTW, I spot feed for the most part too. That is, I use a pipette and waft the food over the corals to let them each eat. I feed the fish at the same time in a more open water area to try (usually unsuccessfully) to keep them from stealing from the corals. A whip and a chair is useful to keep the shrimp back. :rolleyes:

I am coming to the conclusion that the real difference between my tanks & Eric's are that his do not age in the same way mine do: I set up tanks and stock them over the course of a year or two then I just let them remain and grow. After about eight to ten years, I see the beginnings of "Old tank syndrome" and I revive the tank as noted in an earlier post.

Eric seems to piddle with his tanks constantly. He changes things in and out, frags, trades specimens, etc. His tanks are therefor in a state of constant change and renewal and thus do not "age" in the same way mine do.

This weekend, I was watching my wife re-pot orchids. She is an orchid fanatic and takes great care of them. As I watched, I began to think of her routines. Are the corals & critters in our reef tanks the same to a wild coral reef as her orchids are to the rainforest? Maybe we should be "Re-potting" our reef tanks every five years or so?
 
Heh, this all sounds reasonable.

On the other hand, I have often heard many people say that those that have their 'hands in the tank' all the time often have problems. But that might stem from them already having problems and are just always in the tank trying to fix the problem..

I like the analogy of the old forest presented in this thread. It's like a stagnant forest where there is so much old growth that new growth can't compete. Trees/bushes are growing into each other and haulting their growth. Compare that to a recently burned area (like mentioned in previous threads) and the new growth coming up is rapid and fast. Are we saying, if left unchecked, the corals grow so close to each other they are shading/chemically competing against each other and as an end result compromising their growth?

Instead of the 'repotting' you merely need to do something that gardeners also do. Trim/cutback/prune. Perhaps merely fragging corals and providing an urchin to chew up the coralline growth and thereby opening up the live rock so it can 'breathe' better would help considerably.

Plants regularly seem to grow faster after pruning/cutting. My parents have a forest and they made a path through it. Quite amazing how quickly some bushes sprung to life when downed trees provided better light penetration/air flow.
 
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