Maybe I'm not getting the big picture...

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6864460#post6864460 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by KingDiamond
I stated that I never do something and nobody I know does a particular thing
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Then how can you come to the conclusion that siphoning your tank wouldn't help?

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6864460#post6864460 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by KingDiamond
It pulls out all the macroinvertebrates that you want in the substrate
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Sorry but I find it kind of silly to think that it will pull out "all" of the macroinvertebrates. Will it pull out some? Yes but it will also leave most behind. Show me a tank that has failed because of siphoning the sand and I will change my ways of doing things.

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6864460#post6864460 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by KingDiamond
I would not want people to think if they didn't listen to me that they were wrong.
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Sorry but again that is another silly statement. That just make me think that you don't have any credentials to back up your opinion. If you truly have the credentials then you should let that be known so people can trust your opinion, unless your not sure about it yourself.

Brad please don't think that I'm trying to be a hard a$$ because I'm not. Its just that so far you have not backed up anything that you have said.
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6860945#post6860945 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by KingDiamond
I never vacumm the sand or crushed coral in a reef system! It pulls out all the macroinvertebrates that you want in the substrate. Anyone I know with a sucessful reef system never has put a gravel vacumm anywhere near thier tank.

Brad
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Brad, This is what you said last night you are presenting yourself as someone with some expertise. I think that's great and we need people like that. You use the term "never". I believe the opposite is true, should I sit back and not counter that assertion?

Quite honestly I don't know you or your expertise. You may have friends who "never" vacuum, I have friends who always vacuum and probably some who vacuum a little and some who never vacuum (though I doubt it). The difference is you are spreading information to people who honestly don't know the answer, representing your way as the only way and belittle others for having a different idea. I don't think that's doing anyone any good...
Just my opinion, Tim
 
I presented him as someone with expertise. I never intended for him to be attacked becuase of me. I value his opinion because, due to his profession, he must have knowledge the rest of us do not. He's already said that his way isn't always the best, and that certain things work for certain people. He's already apologized if he offended anyone. He's even followed by saying that he siphons fish only tanks all the time, which answers the original post. I think its time we let it go.
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6864718#post6864718 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Dubbin1
Then how can you come to the conclusion that siphoning your tank wouldn't help?
I never said it wouldn't. I have never had problems with my substrate that would make me need to siphon.


Sorry but I find it kind of silly to think that it will pull out "all" of the macroinvertebrates. Will it pull out some? Yes but it will also leave most behind. Show me a tank that has failed because of siphoning the sand and I will change my ways of doing things.
O.K. I am human! I said "all" when I meant "some". Shoot me. I did not think you had to be the Son of Man to post. Again I NEVER said your tank would fail if you siphoned it.


Sorry but again that is another silly statement. That just make me think that you don't have any credentials to back up your opinion. If you truly have the credentials then you should let that be known so people can trust your opinion, unless your not sure about it yourself.

So because it doesn't say "Have worked in a public Aquarium for 10 years and have Masters level education with inverts" You won't believe anything I say. But if I was some kid trying to cause trouble with those credentials next to my name you would believe me! What I have learned in 10 years of helping people, if they don't think your right then they are not going to believe you anyway! No matter your credentials.

Brad please don't think that I'm trying to be a hard a$$ because I'm not. Its just that so far you have not backed up anything that you have said.
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Neither has anyone else! People are more believeable if you are more familiar with them. My work is on public display at the zoo.
 
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Ben,
It's not my intention to attack. I vacuum my sand, lightly, because it's inevitable some small amount of detritus is going to collect or it just is dingy looking and if I stir the top up i looks more "fresh" and "clean". I doubt I am seriously impacting my population of "micro"inverts to the point of it being an issue with my system's viability, I fact it's hard for me to believe it's not beneficial. I guess the question is, if the tank were bare bottom would we question vacuuming? I will concede the point if you have a DSB or plenum system you may not want to routinely make significant disturbances in the sand bed but still I can't imagine why you'd want to leave the common crud that builds up in the system....

Tim:cool:
 
I can see where kingdiamond is coming from, in a fairly large tank, with a big sandbed, the accumulation of deterious would not really be an issue, it would be spread out over such a large amount of substrate as to have little effect, however in a smaller tank with a smaller sandbed it probably will unless you have a lot of sandstirring organisms like cucumbers, stars, horsehshoe crabs, etc. that can really move the stuff around. problem I see is that a lot of the big sand movers are doing so to get at the smaller inverts in the sand.

i am willing to bet that in a tank as large as the one you are maintaining at a zoo you don't often need to introduce non-living food for filter feeders and corals. the system probably produces a LOT on it's own. but in our smaller systems a lot of us provide a lot of food for both the fish and the corals, filter feeders, and it is inevitable that a good amount of that will make it down to the substrate as food or waste, causing a lot of problems in the long run. in addition, in a tank as large as 1200 gallons, people probably pay less attention to the sandbed and so some gunk doesn't matter as much.

I think in the end we are just talking about two different "animals" :) so to speak, smaller home tanks and large public tanks. a tank that large can produce and reduce all kinds of things that our smaller tanks need us to do for them.

I totally envy anyone who is able work with large volumes like that, I would love to get a super large tank someday, but that will be a long ways off.

any chance of us getting the behind the scenes tour of the set-up you take care of, the only truely large set-ups I have seen in detail are the ones on tank of the month, might even give us ideas for our home tanks.
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6860831#post6860831 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by bigdaddyadam
I advise you to vacumm with a tube vacumm as much as possible. you can get one at meijers or Gary's cheap.
your tank will look much better if you do.



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How often is that?
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6866178#post6866178 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by bigdaddyadam
I can see where kingdiamond is coming from, in a fairly large tank, with a big sandbed, the accumulation of deterious would not really be an issue, it would be spread out over such a large amount of substrate as to have little effect, however in a smaller tank with a smaller sandbed it probably will unless you have a lot of sandstirring organisms like cucumbers, stars, horsehshoe crabs, etc. that can really move the stuff around. problem I see is that a lot of the big sand movers are doing so to get at the smaller inverts in the sand.

i am willing to bet that in a tank as large as the one you are maintaining at a zoo you don't often need to introduce non-living food for filter feeders and corals. the system probably produces a LOT on it's own. but in our smaller systems a lot of us provide a lot of food for both the fish and the corals, filter feeders, and it is inevitable that a good amount of that will make it down to the substrate as food or waste, causing a lot of problems in the long run. in addition, in a tank as large as 1200 gallons, people probably pay less attention to the sandbed and so some gunk doesn't matter as much.

I think in the end we are just talking about two different "animals" :) so to speak, smaller home tanks and large public tanks. a tank that large can produce and reduce all kinds of things that our smaller tanks need us to do for them.

I totally envy anyone who is able work with large volumes like that, I would love to get a super large tank someday, but that will be a long ways off.

any chance of us getting the behind the scenes tour of the set-up you take care of, the only truely large set-ups I have seen in detail are the ones on tank of the month, might even give us ideas for our home tanks.
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Thanks, for taking a different approach bigdaddy! I think the problem began when I thought the tank in question was a reef and not a FOWLR. By the time that came to light the "feeding frenzy" had begun. I know this is hard to believe but when I had my 65 gallon tank at home I didn't vacumm the gravel. Now I was not a festidious as other people about my tank (working in an aquarium makes you "neglect" your home tank a bit). Finally, the birth of my third child made me get rid of it. My gravel may have not looked as "clean" as other people but when I wasn't neglectful of my tank it looked good and the animals were very healthy. If you do lots of water changes, take your time in the begining and have lots of detrivoirs you don't have to vacumm the substrate (this doesn't mean you can't or it bad, I repeat I never said that). Now some people might say since I tore down my tank that it was not good (I don't have any pictures), but many of the animals are on and off display at the zoo or you can ask my brother inlaw what it looked like he tore his down because he couldn't get his corals to grow like mine.The number or species in my tank was low because the colonies were large (I don't like to smush stuff together). At the zoo I kind of have to put more stuff in a tank then I would like. 60% of my 65 gallon was taken up by my favorite corals a Hammer and a Frogspawn. The Frogspawn has been fragged several times a little less that 1/3 of it is on display, some of it is in the Bowling Green State University Marine Lab, and the rest is off display in our coral propagation tank (oh and their is a little bit in our reverse light display). The Hammer is on display also. I had a bright green Acropora species I can't remember which species right now it is either a millepora or something else I tried to key it out looking at the corallites but it wasn't very easy. It even got brighter when I got it under all the 400W metal halides in my prop tank (I ran power compacts at home). So vacumm your gravel every day, if it works for you and your corals grow and are healthy, great. Keep doing what your doing. One thing I do that is probably different then a lot of people nowadays is I don't "feed" my corals. So I probably run my systems with less outside nitrate increase then most people. Once again what works for one person may not work for another. If I was keeping a FOWLR I would vacumm my crushed coral substrate.:) I always hope everyone is sucessful with their reefs or other set ups no matter what they do. Side note does anyone have any idea on how I can catch a candy cane bass out of a large reef? I tried a small hook and line and a fish trap but he is to smart! He is bullying other fish in the tank and I need to add a Copper Band Butterfly to eat Aptasia and I can't add him until I can get that fish out.

Brad
 
you're going to add a butterfly to a reef? I would be somewhat worried about his selectivity when it comes to feeding, they are know for eating more than just aiptasia, they can go after other stuff, although several sites say they can be kept in larger displays with caution.

have you ever considered bergia nudibranchs? they eat ONLY aiptasia exclusively, while they will take more time to become established and it will require a numer of them to do the job I would think with the resources at your disposal at the zoo you would have no trouble aquiring and or breeding a good number of them. just a thought.

also I agree, it's sort of a to each his own method when it comes to certain things, each tank thrives under different conditions. I don't think you have to vacumm any tank, if it is running properly and you aren't feeding way too much the tank should be fine with no vacumming, but some of us just want that sand or CC to look it's whitest :D

one benefit I have found to vacumming is that it helps to get the underlying substrate (which is still perfectly white compared to surface substrate) to the top. the whiter stuff reflects whiter light and the tank appears brighter, corals get a little more light and seem to open a little better. if I don't vacumm, the surface at the very least starts to get a greenish tint to it that then reflects back into the aquarium and that tint is present throughout, it is in my opinion a little off putting, but then this may be a peculiarity of CC as at LFS with sand beds I rarely see such a dramatic green tint to the substrate. it also may be that the RO water i use from meijers is not perfect and still has a bit of PO2 that helps some algea grow on surfaces.

on a side note I live in BG and have heard good things about the tanks on BGSU campus, do you happen to know if the public is allowed to view them? I am an alumni and had no idea about them until recently, I'd love to take a look if they are open to the public
 
about the fish you want to catch, have you condiered a fish trap of some sort, perhaps baited with a food that it likes?

second option, although with that much water it may not be a very feasible one, Calfo suggests that a way of making it easier to catch fish out of a reef is to drain out much if not most of the water for a short period of time so the fish has very little water to hide in. if the fish is especially large that should only make it easier for this approach to work. Calfo notes that almost all reef creatures have mechanisms that allow them to be out of water briefly, so it should be no problem if total process doesn't take too long.

what you will need is something or things, possiblely large garbage cans (or not depending on how big the sump, fuge or whatever is and how much it can hold extra) to hold the water and also you will probably need several powerful pumps to make the process of getting the water out and then back in as quick as possible. might I suggest that if you don't have enough pumps with that high a flowrate for this, I know that when they first set up the new store Gary's bought a bunch of powerheads that were designed for ponds, which turned out too be WAY too powerful for what they needed and so they were trying to sell them, the flowrate on them was MASSIVE. I don't know if he still has any of them but if he does maybe you could buy one or two, or given that it's the zoo he may even let you borrow them.

just an idea, here also is the link to the thread where Calfo details the whole shabang

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=707656
 
Adam I haven't been to the lab in a few years and I'm not an alumni... heck I've never actually been a BG student and they were always very welcoming:cool:
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6868752#post6868752 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by bigdaddyadam
you're going to add a butterfly to a reef? I would be somewhat worried about his selectivity when it comes to feeding, they are know for eating more than just aiptasia, they can go after other stuff, although several sites say they can be kept in larger displays with caution.

have you ever considered bergia nudibranchs? they eat ONLY aiptasia exclusively, while they will take more time to become established and it will require a numer of them to do the job I would think with the resources at your disposal at the zoo you would have no trouble aquiring and or breeding a good number of them. just a thought.

also I agree, it's sort of a to each his own method when it comes to certain things, each tank thrives under different conditions. I don't think you have to vacumm any tank, if it is running properly and you aren't feeding way too much the tank should be fine with no vacumming, but some of us just want that sand or CC to look it's whitest :D

one benefit I have found to vacumming is that it helps to get the underlying substrate (which is still perfectly white compared to surface substrate) to the top. the whiter stuff reflects whiter light and the tank appears brighter, corals get a little more light and seem to open a little better. if I don't vacumm, the surface at the very least starts to get a greenish tint to it that then reflects back into the aquarium and that tint is present throughout, it is in my opinion a little off putting, but then this may be a peculiarity of CC as at LFS with sand beds I rarely see such a dramatic green tint to the substrate. it also may be that the RO water i use from meijers is not perfect and still has a bit of PO2 that helps some algea grow on surfaces.

on a side note I live in BG and have heard good things about the tanks on BGSU campus, do you happen to know if the public is allowed to view them? I am an alumni and had no idea about them until recently, I'd love to take a look if they are open to the public
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The butterfly is question lived in my home aquarium because of an Aptasia problem. Needless to say the Aptasia were not a problem for long. I have put clams with Aptasia growing on them in the tank with this fish and he eats the Aptasia without touching the clam, (didn't touch the mantle) althought I still would not trust any butterfly with a clam long term. As for the bergia, they don't work real well in large aquariums (in my experience). It is difficult to keep the population going in a large aquarium, probably because the "food" is so spread out. As for BG lab, you could probably walk in to the lab and look around and no one would say a thing. If you are an alumni and can find a place to park with a meter I wouldn't think it would be a problem (don't park in a spot that requires a permit you WILL get a ticket). One of our part time employees still deals with the guy who runs the lab (Adam, I can't remember his last name) I will as him the next time I see him (I'am on vacation) and see if it would be a problem. I haven't been there in a while but a lot of the tanks are kind of make shift tanks to save the University money. It kind of fun to see how other people get around the problem of limited funds. It is probably much better then the last time I was there. I know they are always looking for donations so if you have any 400W metal halides laying around I am sure my Acropora tenuis frags I donated to them would regain their bright blue tips and the University would be awlfully happy too.

Brad
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6868936#post6868936 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by hllywd
It's gotta be fun getting a line wet in a reef tank...:lol:
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Actually, it's the most frustrating thing in the world!!!

Brad
 
wow, so you have a copperband that's been trained to play nice :)

I'm half tempted to see if I could borrow him for a few days and let him chomp all the aiptasia in my 55, there's not a ton but there are enough to fill him up for a few days, win win LOL
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6869679#post6869679 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by bigdaddyadam
wow, so you have a copperband that's been trained to play nice :)

I'm half tempted to see if I could borrow him for a few days and let him chomp all the aiptasia in my 55, there's not a ton but there are enough to fill him up for a few days, win win LOL
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He has been good for about five years. I have never given him/her the opportunity to swim in a tank that has any real "fleshy" LPS's thats a little to risky for me. I am going to expose him to some xenia an see if he "plays" nice. Hopfully it passes the test.
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6870327#post6870327 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by OneThunder
:eek1: Does the NORA club ever have meetings at the zoo? :D
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NORA doesn't have club meetings but I've been talking to Brad and TRAC is looking into having a meeting at the Toledo Zoo for a Behind the scenes tour. This will be discussed at our next meeting in April to find the best time for everyone to meet there and to talk to brad on what day works best for him. If your interested please come to our next meeting. We're looking to meet for a Zoo Meeting sometime in May. One of the perks on becoming an Organized group.
 
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