Metal Halide Help.....

[reeflover7826]

Desperately need help from the Pros.

So I bought a dual 175w metal halide ballast off of some guy on craigslist it came with 2 10000k's bulbs he told me the bulbs are well over a year old so I should replace them as soon as I get a chance. The old bulbs fire up perfectly. So I bought my new bulbs not sure which ones to get I just ended up buying 2 10000k's, I screw in the new bulbs fliped the switch and they looked like they where going to fire then one minute later they just turned off, the ballast reads 120v/209v/240v/277v, I know its a multi tap so I tryed to use each voltage one by one, and nothing so like an idiot I bought 2 480v 175w ballast's and still nothing, NOW VERY FRUSTRATED and I DON'T KNOW WHAT TO DO. Please help. Thanks for any inputs.

 

[reeflover7826]

please help, maybe I need to replace old ballast?

 

[reeflover7826]

Anybody?

 

[DarG]

This aint gonna be easy ...

first off, you are confusing the supply voltage with the output. Those different voltage taps are so that the ballasts can run from several different supply voltages.
If its plugged into the standard wall outlet here in the US you need to be wiring into the 120V tap and only the 120V tap.

There are basically two types of magnetic 175 watt metal halide ballasts. Probe start and pulse start. Most 175 watt bulbs sold in the hobby are probe start but a few are pulse start. A probe start ballast is not made to operate a pulse start halide bulb. They may or may not fire a pulse start lamp when the lamp is new and if they do, there is a very good chance that they wont fire the pulse start lamps when they get older. The probe start bulb has a built in ignitor so the probe start ballast does not have the ignitor built in.
The pulse start bulb has NO ignitor in the bulb itself, the ignitor is located with the ballast.
A pulse start ballast will fire a probe start bulb but will often overdrive it to the point that it has a shorter life span.

So here are the questions you need to answer ....

There should be an ansi code on the ballast. If the ballast components are enclosed inside a case then the code may be on the ballast coil itself in the case. But you should be able to find an ansi code ... either M57 for probe start or M137 (M152) for pulse start ballast. Try to find the code and post it here.

Find out what type bulbs you bought, probe or pulse start and/or brand if you can find out. If not, post a picture of the bulb.

One last one for now ... are you sure that you bought 175 watt lamps? You need to match the ballast wattage with the lamp wattage so if they are 175 watt ballasts, you need 175 watt replacement bulbs.

 

[hershell]

it could be something simple like the bulb. Try to leave in on and see if it lights after a min or two. also make sure the nipple is stright up. it might help

 

[reeflover7826]

The brand of the ballast's is Venture, ballast core's read 175watt/M57, the bulb brands are XM, the bulb reads 175w M57 MH175/HOR/MOG/10K.

 

[reeflover7826]

Im thinking I need to replace my old ballast becuase the new ones that I bought were 480v I asume that I need a multi tap ballast with 120v the only thing that bothers me is why would the old bulbs fire up with the old ballast they do seem kind of dim but I'm just not sure. Thanks for your reply DarG.

 

[DarG]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15263122#post15263122 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by reeflover7826
The brand of the ballast's is Venture, ballast core's read 175watt/M57, the bulb brands are XM, the bulb reads 175w M57 MH175/HOR/MOG/10K.

The ballast is a Probe start. The XM bulbs are probe start so ballast and bulbs are perfectly compatible.

I assume you are saying that the new bulbs you bought are XM 175 watt 10K bulbs?
If the new bulbs are the 175 watt XM's then the ballast you have should run them fine.
If those are the old bulbs and the new bulbs are pulse start bulbs, then the problem most likely lies there. As I mentioned, pulse start bulbs rely on an external ignitor to fire and that ignitor is not present with the M57 ballast.

It is far more common for the capacitor to go bad rather than the ballast itself. If they are older ballasts, it may just be time to replace the capacitors. Again, assuming that the XM bulbs you mention are the new bulbs that wont fire with the ballasts.
The capacitor is the can looking component that is wired to the ballast. They are generally just connected with spade connectors to the top terminals on the capacitors and are easy to replace. But they need to be replaced with a capacitor of the same ratings (voltage and capacitance [uF or MFD = microfarad]).
If the old lamps are firing, it would seem logical that the ballasts themselves (the transformers) are ok and the problem is likely the capacitors as mentioned.

It is possible that you arent getting good contact with the new bulbs in the sockets. You may want to try bending the center contact inside the socket slightly outward to make sure it is making proper contact with the new bulbs. MAKE SURE THAT THERE IS NO POWER TO THE SOCKET FIRST. If there is a connector from ballast to socket/pendant/reflector then unplug it at the ballast or the pendant. If it is hard wired, make sure you unplug the ballast from the wall first. It is possible that just because the old bulbs fire, that the new bulbs still arent making solid contact with that center contact in the socket. So it is worth a try bending that outward before investing more money in capacitors or new ballasts.

If it is the capacitors, The capacitors can probably be found in the 20 - 30 dollar range at lighting supply dealers that sell them. Hellolights.com may sell the correct replacements. A google search for metal halide ballast capacitors with the voltage and capacitance of the capacitors will likely turn up some suppliers.

Again, if the ballasts are firing the old lamps, it is unlikely that the ballasts themselves are bad. So replacing the capacitors is the most likely problem if there is faulty/worn component. But try bending out that socket center contact slightly first.

You simply could replace the ballasts with electronic ballasts.
If budget is a concern, check ballastwise.com for inexpensive electronic ballasts that get good reviews in general. Or Hellolights.com for the ARO electronic ballasts. The Ballastwise electronics are probably 60 or 70 dollars for 175 watt. Maybe around 100 dollars for the ARO ballasts at hello lights.

 

[reeflover7826]

Yes the new bulbs are XM's, the old bulbs don't have a brand name on them but the bulbs read 175W E39 T46 10000K. I'm going to try replace the old capacitors with the new ballast capacitors that I bought that where 480v. The old capacitors and the new capacitors all read 400VAC 60Hz, so I asume that they are compatible, its worth a shot. DarG I appreciate all your help. Thank you.

 

[reeflover7826]

YOU ARE A GOD. It worked, it finally worked I'm so excited it finally worked. I can't thank you enough, the new capacitors worked thank you thank you thank you................

 

[DarG]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15267271#post15267271 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by reeflover7826
YOU ARE A GOD. It worked, it finally worked I'm so excited it finally worked. I can't thank you enough, the new capacitors worked thank you thank you thank you................

You're welcome and Im glad it worked.

But hold on for one second and check one more thing on the capacitors ... the 400 Vac rating on the caps is fine.
Please check the capacitance for complete compatibility.
You should see a number followed by either the letters MFD or uF. For example ...

10 uF or 10 MFD

The capacitance of the new capacitors and the old also needs to match up.

 

[DarG]

By the way, if you decide that you want a "whiter" 175 watt lamp try the Iwasaki 175 watt 15000K lamps. They have strong par and are a cool white lamp compared to the warmer XM 10K lamps which can tend to produce a bit of a warmer color (yellowish tint). On those ballasts, The Iwasaki actually has a bit higher output than the XM while producing a cooler white color compared to the XM. The Iwasaki is also a probe start lamp compatible with your M57 ballasts.

 

[reeflover7826]

I checked they all read 10uF. They are a little yellowish even with my actinics on. I have a Orange Montipora Digitata, Green Cap, Purple Cap, Hairy Mushroom, Sebae Anemone, and an Atomic Green, Hobgoblin, Eagle Eye Zoa's. Which do you think would be the best bulb for these corals, color and growth? I've been think of a bluer bulb. Still can't thank you enough.

 

[DarG]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15270615#post15270615 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by reeflover7826
I checked they all read 10uF. They are a little yellowish even with my actinics on. I have a Orange Montipora Digitata, Green Cap, Purple Cap, Hairy Mushroom, Sebae Anemone, and an Atomic Green, Hobgoblin, Eagle Eye Zoa's. Which do you think would be the best bulb for these corals, color and growth? I've been think of a bluer bulb. Still can't thank you enough.

Capacitance matches so you are all set.

I mention the Iwasaki 15000K because this lamp is "legendary". But it isnt a blue lamp. It measures very close to the 15000K rating. I would best describe it as a cool white lamp. There is a large specrtal peak in the blue range but also has some spikes at the warmer end of the spectrum. When I say "cool" white, it doesnt have the yellow tint that the XM 10K but it does have higher par on the ballasts that you are using. It rivals the par of many 250 watt halides. Since you are perceiving the XM's as a little yellowish, you would probably see the Iwasaki as more of a pure white lamp. But again, it isnt a blue lamp. When you start getting into the "blue" lamps, you are giving up some par, sometimes a lot of par.

But again, Im not saying that the XM isnt a good lamp. It has good par. If you are supplementing it with 420nm actinics you may want to try some blue (450 nm) lamps. The XM has a good deal of energy in the 420 nm range itself. It is lacking much output in the actual blue 450nm range. So supplementing with Blue flourescents may give you better results since they have stronger par than 420nm actinics and will have a larger impact on bluing up the XM's. Some manufacturers call both their 450nm and their 420nm flourescents, "actinic".

Since you are running 175 watt I just wanted to mention the Iwasaki because of it's reputation. Not saying you should switch. Just wanting to make you aware of the lamp and its perfect compatibility with the M57 ballasts that you have.


Also, if you do decide to look around at other lamps, dont assume that the K rating necessarily translates to the actual color temperature given off by the lamps. The XM 10K and Iwasaki 15K's are just two lamps in which the rating actually matches the meaured color. There are many that dont. For example, the Ushio 14K which is a great lamp, actually measures closer to 10K. The Hamilton 14K and Reeflux 12K in 175 watt mogul versions actually measure above 20K and both are relatively weak in the par department.

Just some food for thought.
Again, glad I could help and happy to hear the ballasts are up and running well with the new caps.

 

[cabrego]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15274505#post15274505 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by DarG
Capacitance matches so you are all set.

I mention the Iwasaki 15000K because this lamp is "legendary". But it isnt a blue lamp. It measures very close to the 15000K rating. I would best describe it as a cool white lamp. There is a large specrtal peak in the blue range but also has some spikes at the warmer end of the spectrum. When I say "cool" white, it doesnt have the yellow tint that the XM 10K but it does have higher par on the ballasts that you are using. It rivals the par of many 250 watt halides. Since you are perceiving the XM's as a little yellowish, you would probably see the Iwasaki as more of a pure white lamp. But again, it isnt a blue lamp. When you start getting into the "blue" lamps, you are giving up some par, sometimes a lot of par.

But again, Im not saying that the XM isnt a good lamp. It has good par. If you are supplementing it with 420nm actinics you may want to try some blue (450 nm) lamps. The XM has a good deal of energy in the 420 nm range itself. It is lacking much output in the actual blue 450nm range. So supplementing with Blue flourescents may give you better results since they have stronger par than 420nm actinics and will have a larger impact on bluing up the XM's. Some manufacturers call both their 450nm and their 420nm flourescents, "actinic".

Since you are running 175 watt I just wanted to mention the Iwasaki because of it's reputation. Not saying you should switch. Just wanting to make you aware of the lamp and its perfect compatibility with the M57 ballasts that you have.


Also, if you do decide to look around at other lamps, dont assume that the K rating necessarily translates to the actual color temperature given off by the lamps. The XM 10K and Iwasaki 15K's are just two lamps in which the rating actually matches the meaured color. There are many that dont. For example, the Ushio 14K which is a great lamp, actually measures closer to 10K. The Hamilton 14K and Reeflux 12K in 175 watt mogul versions actually measure above 20K and both are relatively weak in the par department.

Just some food for thought.
Again, glad I could help and happy to hear the ballasts are up and running well with the new caps.

DarG,

Very Interesting information about the Iwasaki 15000K. Where can I read more about this, I am currently running 175w XM 10000K and would like to get a little more blue and increase my par. I am running a system similar to this one http://www.championlighting.com/product.php?productid=18539&cat=558&page=1 the brand is actually customsealife creations. which is no longer in business...

 

[DarG]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15275037#post15275037 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by cabrego
DarG,

Very Interesting information about the Iwasaki 15000K. Where can I read more about this, I am currently running 175w XM 10000K and would like to get a little more blue and increase my par. I am running a system similar to this one http://www.championlighting.com/product.php?productid=18539&cat=558&page=1 the brand is actually customsealife creations. which is no longer in business...

There is some info on the Iwasaki in one of the published lamp tests. But there has been a lot of buzz about the lamp for a long time. I have used the lamp as well. The lamp tested with higher par on electronic ballast as many probe starts do compared to running on old tech probe start ballats but the color temp. is slightly higher on the spec. m57 probe start.
A google search on the lamp should turn up some more info. Also Sanjays lighting pages at www.manhattanreefs.com/lighting (manhattanreefs dot com / lighting ... in case the link doesnt work) shows the spectral plot and measured par on the different ballasts.