Mhucasey's SPS obsession

[JB NY]

FWIW, I calculated the Triton dosing schedule to be target of 0.002 ppm. Dose 0.0011 ppm weekly, or 0.000166 ppm daily.

I currently dose the 0.000166 daily, but am planning on upping that to 0.0013 ppm after speaking to a few salt manufactures on what they consider safe levels in the reef.

I think that it is better to start below target levels and work your way up, a few people have reported bleaching at higher than NSW levels. Although I have been having difficultly finding any research papers that confirms this. I know that Andrew is feeling that Mn is helpful to coloration too, I still have been having difficulty finding any research that specifically addresses it.

 

[mhucasey]

Hey Matt,

So I have been dosing Mn for the last 1 1/2 months, the last 3 weeks daily. Currently using the Triton Mn but have bought Manganese Chloride Tetrahydrate, and will mix my own and dose that when I run out.

Looking at what you wan to do, it looks like you want to dose 0.00633ppm a day of Mn into your tank of 195 gallons? Yes? If so and you want to make a 1 liter solution, you need to dissolve 19.79g of Manganese Chloride Tetrahydrate. That will give you a solution where 1ml will raise Mn 0.0097ppm in 100L.

so if you dose 4.81ml that should raise you levels by 0.00633ppm

Perfect timing Joe!!!!!!!

According to their test result chart they recommended dosing 0.00633mL/day(if it is mLs of solution per day) per gallon of system volume. Their target is maintaining 0.000002g or 2ug/L of Manganese. Is that how you go based on Triton's result page?

I'm going to work through your numbers here.
Manganese chloride tetrahydrate is 28% Manganese by weight, so 19.79g would yield 5.54g of Mn.

Dissolve in one liter of water would result in 5.54g/L or 0.00554g/mL.
Adding one ml of this solution to my tank:
0.00554/738L = 0.0000075g/L or 7.5ug/L, thats higher than the target of 2ug/L. I think thats too high.

According to their test result chart they recommended dosing 0.00633mL if it is mLs of solution per day per gallon of system volume. Their target is 0.000002g or 2ug/L of Manganese. To bring a system from 0 to 2um they suggest 14.77mL for a system of my size(195gallons or 738L)

For my system maintenance would be 1.222mLs of their solution per day.

All my crazy math was intended to find out what the concentration of Manganese was in their solution. The solution I calculated produces a 0.0001g/mL solution, and so adding 1.22mLs of solution would increase system Mn levels by (0.0001g/mL X 1.22mL)/738L = 0.0165ug each addition.

I made up a batch of solution last night at 10X strength. I think Ill re-do it and make it more dilute. I have to cheat and make it stronger, then dilute it since I don't have an analytical balance.

I skipped MicroE dosing last night and will start the Mn dosing soon.

 

[mhucasey]

FWIW, I calculated the Triton dosing schedule to be target of 0.002 ppm. Dose 0.0011 ppm weekly, or 0.000166 ppm daily.

I currently dose the 0.000166 daily, but am planning on upping that to 0.0013 ppm after speaking to a few salt manufactures on what they consider safe levels in the reef.

I think that it is better to start below target levels and work your way up, a few people have reported bleaching at higher than NSW levels. Although I have been having difficultly finding any research papers that confirms this. I know that Andrew is feeling that Mn is helpful to coloration too, I still have been having difficulty finding any research that specifically addresses it.

That seems correct, I was working in g/mL while you were working in ppm. Our numbers as far as their recommendations are concerned match though.

 

[drawman]

Matt how has the cyano been looking? I've kind of been waiting on the sidelines to see how it does for you before I start MicroE. I have a pretty solid mat of it in my 60 gallon.

Reactor looks real nice what dosing pump are you using for the -NP Pro?

 

[mhucasey]

Matt how has the cyano been looking? I've kind of been waiting on the sidelines to see how it does for you before I start MicroE. I have a pretty solid mat of it in my 60 gallon.

Reactor looks real nice what dosing pump are you using for the -NP Pro?

Just about zero cyano...but after adding fresh phosphate minus and setting up the All-in-one reactor there have been some dry looking sps bases so I want to reduce the iron levels in the tank more. Ideally I'll dose Micro E at half dose and straight Manganese to get the levels up. I'm going without MicroE for a few days before I do to see if the Cyano comes back before adding just Manganese. I want to experiment a little.


Thanks for the compliment, the tanks are doing really well. I have 3 brs dosing pumps so I'll use one of those but I need fresh tubing. All the tubing I have is pretty beat up and has been use a little too much.

 

[mhucasey]

Very very healthy looking!

Thanks, though I'm flirting with the limits here. Some dry looking bases yesterday, my trace element dosing needs to be eased up a bit.

 

[JB NY]

OK we are doing the math different ways.

This is what I am doing. I'm 99% certain this is right.

On my latest Triton test Mn was 0, target 2 ug/L (0.002ppm). I do everything in ppm so bear with me.

I have 1420 Liters in my sytem. Triton test told me to raise once add 28.4 ml and dose daily at 2.37 ml

Their solutions are sold in 100ml bottles.

So playing with the number a while I came to their concentration for 100ml is 0.001029 Moles/L
100ml =.1L
197.905169 = molar mass of MnCl2.4H2O
0.001029 M = concentration

0.1L * 197.905169 * 0.001029 = 0.0204 g of MnCl2.4H2O to make the solution

1 Mole is 35500 ppm: 0.001029 * 35500 = 36.5295
Convert Volume from Liters to ml: 0.1 * 1000 = 100
Then to find 1ml to 100L divide by 100

So ((36.5295)/(100) /100) = 0.003 ppm of MnCl2.4H2O

out of this how much is Mn (27.76%)
0.003 * .2776 = 0.0010 ppm Mn

so 1ml into 100L riase Mn by 0.001 ppm

to raise 1420 Liters to 0.002ppm
.002/.001 * 14.20 = 28.4ml

 

[JB NY]

Also for your friend's tank 150 gallons = 567.812 Liters

To raise to 0.002ppm
0.002/0.001*5.67812 = 11.36ml

 

[mhucasey]

OK we are doing the math different ways.

This is what I am doing. I'm 99% certain this is right.

On my latest Triton test Mn was 0, target 2 ug/L (0.002ppm). I do everything in ppm so bear with me.

I have 1420 Liters in my sytem. Triton test told me to raise once add 28.4 ml and dose daily at 2.37 ml

Their solutions are sold in 100ml bottles.

So playing with the number a while I came to their concentration for 100ml is 0.001029 Moles/L
100ml =.1L
197.905169 = molar mass of MnCl2.4H2O
0.001029 M = concentration

0.1L * 197.905169 * 0.001029 = 0.0204 g of MnCl2.4H2O to make the solution

Ok I think I follow you so far here, to make 100mL of solution, you would use 0.0204g MnCl2.4H2O, So to make 1L you would need 0.204g. This is close to my estimate, which was 0.36g for 1L

1 Mole is 35500 ppm: 0.001029 * 35500 = 36.5295
Convert Volume from Liters to ml: 0.1 * 1000 = 100
Then to find 1ml to 100L divide by 100


So ((36.5295)/(100) /100) = 0.003 ppm of MnCl2.4H2O

So one ML has 0.003ppm MnCl2.4H2O, with you so far.

out of this how much is Mn (27.76%)
0.003 * .2776 = 0.0010 ppm Mn

so 1ml into 100L riase Mn by 0.001 ppm

I think I got it, you converted this to a dose per 100L earlier.

to raise 1420 Liters to 0.002ppm
.002/.001 * 14.20 = 28.4ml

I think this is correct, molarity is one of those things that I have a hazy awareness of from school.

I guess the question comes back to how much MnCl2.4H2O in grams to add to 1000mL. This suggests 0.204g but the earlier post you indicated 19.79grams in one L - perhaps you were suggesting that to make a more concentrated amount, I'm not sure. The problem with 0.204g is that you need an analytical balance to get anywhere near accurate measurement, and I don't have one of those at home.

I'm going to play with the numbers some more, it would be more convenient to calculate this to achieve a one drop per 100mL solution like Aquaforest uses, and to be able to weigh out a larger amount so that a kitchen balance could be used.

 

[JB NY]

To make the exact same but as a 1 liter solution, meaning 1ml into 100L = raises Mn by 0.001 ppm

Add 2.0364 g to 1 Liter.

The earlier numbers were for a solution that would add 0.0097ppm, 1ml to 100L. I think I just misunderstood how much you wanted to add.

One drop per 100L you can do, but you first have to figure out how many ml are in one drop.

If you are selling a product that you have control over the size of the drop (bottle), it makes sense to do it that way. But if you are talking on the internet and have no control over what kind of bottles people are putting the solution into, better to use ml to dose.

 

[JB NY]

If you add 3.6g into 1 Liter, it would give you a concentration of 0.0018, 1ml into 100L. So almost 2x the amount. Mn is in such small concentrations that a little can have a big affect on our tanks.

You can make up whatever concentration you like, personally I like having to dose a larger amount, it leaves room in case I add too much.

 

[mhucasey]

To make the exact same but as a 1 liter solution, meaning 1ml into 100L = raises Mn by 0.001 ppm

Add 2.0364 g to 1 Liter.

The earlier numbers were for a solution that would add 0.0097ppm, 1ml to 100L. I think I just misunderstood how much you wanted to add.

One drop per 100L you can do, but you first have to figure out how many ml are in one drop.

If you are selling a product that you have control over the size of the drop (bottle), it makes sense to do it that way. But if you are talking on the internet and have no control over what kind of bottles people are putting the solution into, better to use ml to dose.

I was going to use a Zeovit or Aquaforest dropper bottle, and I generally go with 20 drops per ml. Measuring tiny ml amounts is much harder to do.

Where I am missing something is your conversion of the Grams per 100mL of solution vs grams per liter. If it is 0.0204g for 100Ml than it would be 0.0204*10 = 0.204g to make 1000mL - or did I miss something?

I would go with a 0.02058 molarity solution (0.001029 * 20).

To make one L:
1L * 197.905169 * 0.02058 = 4.07 g of MnCl2.4H2O to make the solution.
Does that make sense?
Thanks for working through this with me...

 

[JB NY]

I was going to use a Zeovit or Aquaforest dropper bottle, and I generally go with 20 drops per ml. Measuring tiny ml amounts is much harder to do.

Where I am missing something is your conversion of the Grams per 100mL of solution vs grams per liter. If it is 0.0204g for 100Ml than it would be 0.0204*10 = 0.204g to make 1000mL - or did I miss something?

To keep the same strength of the dosing concentration when going to 1000ml from 100ml you have to also increase the concentration from .001029M to .01029M that it why the grams you use goes up by a factor of 100 not a factor of 10.

I would go with a 0.02058 molarity solution (0.001029 * 20).

To make one L:
1L * 197.905169 * 0.02058 = 4.07 g of MnCl2.4H2O to make the solution.
Does that make sense?
Thanks for working through this with me...

That is correct. It gives you a concentration of 0.002ppm, 1ml to 100L

Working with such low amount of grams does make it hard to measure out small batches. I was around for the red bug interceptor solution when it first came out, and you needed to have a scale that would measure down to 0.001 accurately so I still have that stuff to use.

 

[mhucasey]

To keep the same strength of the dosing concentration when going to 1000ml from 100ml you have to also increase the concentration from .001029M to .01029M that it why the grams you use goes up by a factor of 100 not a factor of 10.

Ok I think that is where our wires are crossed, I don't want to change strength, just make a larger batch at the same strength so I can weigh a larger amount. I would make a liter and then just keep a hundred mLs or so and toss the rest. I have 100 grams of Manganese chloride so Its more than I would ever need anyway.

I think I'm going to look into a higher resolution balance though.

 

[JB NY]

So here is something I think we can do too. Make a stock solution and then take from that to make a diluted solution that you use to dose.

Make a 1 Liter .0515M solution of MnCl2.4H2O, you mix up with 10.1921g.

Then take 2ml of that solution and mix to create 100ml, that solution will have a 0.001029M. That is same 1ml to 100L = 0.002ppm concentration as before.

Then just take from the stock solution whenever you run out of the 100ml bottle.

Right? I think that works.

 

[mhucasey]

So here is something I think we can do too. Make a stock solution and then take from that to make a diluted solution that you use to dose.

Make a 1 Liter .0515M solution of MnCl2.4H2O, you mix up with 10.1921g.

Then take 2ml of that solution and mix to create 100ml, that solution will have a 0.001029M. That is same 1ml to 100L = 0.002ppm concentration as before.

Then just take from the stock solution whenever you run out of the 100ml bottle.

Right? I think that works.

Yep, that would work, and I think we are on the same page now. I actually jumped on Amazon and purchased a milligram scale so all options are on the table for me now. I'm going to let a few days pass without dosing MicroE before I start dosing Mangansese.

Thanks for all your help!!!!

Next stop will be Zinc solution from zinc sulfide:spin2:

 

[JB NY]

You're welcome. Yeah we are on the same page!

I am already dosing zinc but will make a solution once the one I have is finished. I like that a few us us are starting to put very exact amounts of certain elements in our tanks, it will help to understand what is really going on in a lot of the assumptions that we are having.

 

[mhucasey]

You're welcome. Yeah we are on the same page!

I am already dosing zinc but will make a solution once the one I have is finished. I like that a few us us are starting to put very exact amounts of certain elements in our tanks, it will help to understand what is really going on in a lot of the assumptions that we are having.

It would be fascinating to get to the heart of why some tanks have algae problems while others don't, regardless of the Phosphate and Nitrate numbers - this appears to be related to Manganese competing with Iron in chlorophyl production but selective dosing of one element will be able to help confirm that.


As for Zinc, That may prove to be even more intriguing. If it is an essential element for SPS corals as it seems to be, resulting in burned tips when the levels go to zero for too long, how many tip burning incidents have been incorrectly chalked up to ALK? Does Alkalinity interact with Zinc in some way, like lower Alk systems need less Zinc so the chance of tip burn is less? Lots to ponder here.

 

[JB NY]

As for Zinc, That may prove to be even more intriguing. If it is an essential element for SPS corals as it seems to be, resulting in burned tips when the levels go to zero for too long, how many tip burning incidents have been incorrectly chalked up to ALK? Does Alkalinity interact with Zinc in some way, like lower Alk systems need less Zinc so the chance of tip burn is less? Lots to ponder here.

I think the zinc is going to be either right or a big piece of the puzzle. Alk over 8 dKH giving burnt tips only applies when it happens to you. I know so many tanks that alk can bounce all over the place and never get burnt tips. For years I never had that problem until one day I suddenly did. But since I started with zinc I have not seen that problem at all.

 

[reefmutt]

Matt! You need some more mind boggling pe shots to counteract the mind boggling numbers going on!
All your new pieces are amazing.
Do you dose both fluorine and iodine?
The AF flourine has both iodine and flourine in it..
I have ordered it so that I can dose both at once. Atm, I dose lugols but want to stop this in favor of only the flourine.