prop-frags
SPS Slave
Thanks Rich - appreciate all the input you guys gave us - it truly was very helpful. Yes, the light rack worked out better than we could have hoped. Maintenance would be misery without it.
Mike's 300 Double-D
- Thread starter prop-frags
- Start date
Thanks Rich - appreciate all the input you guys gave us - it truly was very helpful. Yes, the light rack worked out better than we could have hoped. Maintenance would be misery without it.
I spent the last two days catching up on your system. Very fun (for me that is) to recast your days/weeks/months of hard work and progress in a matter of hours!
First, I am just starting a new 240, so I've learned from your post, as well as others.
I have a few questions for you:
1. Where can I learn more about the herbie and systems. I am familiar with the use of a gate valve to throttle flow immediately downstream of overflow bulkhead ... to control gurgling/noise ... but other than that, what is the herbie system and where might I learn more?
2. Similarly, what the heck is a Dursa Standpipe, and why is it special relative to a simple standpipe a fella might fabricate with simple PVC pipe?
3. Third, I read the 1 or 2 threads with question about the (possible light) structural capacity of your stand. I am a professional engineer, and I would suggest you consider some type of retrofit to stiffen up your supports near midspan. I believe your support is completely sufficient at large, but those horizontal 2x4s do not have enough stiffness to adequately take the load off your glass bottom in the middle portion of the tank, which means the base of your glass aquarium is deflecting and you are carrying a decent bending moment through the lower portion of your system. That, in conjunction, means you are transferring load across the vertical and horizontal panes of your aquarium. All of this is not apparent to the eye. Don't mean to scare you, but I see an opportunity to improve it with a simply retrofit. Please forgive if you have already been down this road!
4. I would love to see a photo or two of your sump area.
Paul
First, I am just starting a new 240, so I've learned from your post, as well as others.
I have a few questions for you:
1. Where can I learn more about the herbie and systems. I am familiar with the use of a gate valve to throttle flow immediately downstream of overflow bulkhead ... to control gurgling/noise ... but other than that, what is the herbie system and where might I learn more?
2. Similarly, what the heck is a Dursa Standpipe, and why is it special relative to a simple standpipe a fella might fabricate with simple PVC pipe?
3. Third, I read the 1 or 2 threads with question about the (possible light) structural capacity of your stand. I am a professional engineer, and I would suggest you consider some type of retrofit to stiffen up your supports near midspan. I believe your support is completely sufficient at large, but those horizontal 2x4s do not have enough stiffness to adequately take the load off your glass bottom in the middle portion of the tank, which means the base of your glass aquarium is deflecting and you are carrying a decent bending moment through the lower portion of your system. That, in conjunction, means you are transferring load across the vertical and horizontal panes of your aquarium. All of this is not apparent to the eye. Don't mean to scare you, but I see an opportunity to improve it with a simply retrofit. Please forgive if you have already been down this road!
4. I would love to see a photo or two of your sump area.
Paul
And a 5th question I forgot:
5. Could you share more information on the recommendation for an independent emergency overflow drain back to sump (as opposed to merging the herbie drain and overflow drain together immediately downstream of the herbie gate valve?). Thanks in advance.
5. Could you share more information on the recommendation for an independent emergency overflow drain back to sump (as opposed to merging the herbie drain and overflow drain together immediately downstream of the herbie gate valve?). Thanks in advance.
crvz
Team RC
Mike, I read this, and my first reaction was to defend your build. But after trolling through the earlier pictures, I think this comment may be spot on. I'm planning on building the same basic stand structure for the same tank, but I'm going to use 2x8's for the top horizontal beam. I'd take this into consideration if you've not already exhausted the issue.
First, please accept my VERY HUMBLE feedback as sincere intent to help. I can appreciate how anxious it might feel to hear critique from some stranger on the west coast! Obviously, my intent is not to criticize, but to help. Also, I know many out there are very very experienced, and I do not profess to know more any others. Perhaps some out there are having success with similar designs, and I definately respect that. And in fact, I bet there is a structural engineer or two out there as well with experience in field.
After feeling some guilt since my post last night, I have decided the least I can do is offer a solution, but first, I have a question: Did you notice your lower cabinet doors suffer misalignment and/or difficulty to open/close immediately upon loading with water? I would predict you would have noticed something different right away ... but perhaps this is not the case?
Regardless, IF you feel you may wish to bolster your frame, then your setup seems suitable to accept a fairly simple retrofit, as follows:
Consider a new support, with special attention for installation on a system which is already under full load and deflecting. Obviously, if you could magically go back to the day before your tank arrived (during that snow storm for example) you could simply add a pair of 4x4 columns. But since you are "œin the wet" I suggest including 4x4 columns including screw jacks (http://www.ellisok.com/ellisok/timberjackproducts_screwjacks.html):
The concept is shown on the attached but I recommend two columns, one on each end. And of course the horizontal 4x4 should support your midspan member seems very well positions (and fastened to the adjoining longitudinal 2x4s). Obviously, all of this will add some congestion (but not much actually?) to your lower cabinet. I worry about the ability to shoehorn in the new support to bear under the longitudinal 2x4 which is on the front of your cabinet; will it work?
I suggest some sort of plywood platform at bottom which is anchors/screwed in place to assure no sliding, and then screw/bolt the screw jacks (I guess you could bolt the bottom plates of the timber jacks to your nice wood floor as well!). You must of course mitigate for Murphy's Law by adding fasters adequately across your retrofit. If possible, I drain what you can (partial seems just fine) prior to jacking up the midspan. That can be precarious because it's very difficult to understand just how much upward load you are applying as you screw up the timber jacks. You're probably going to apply say 1000 lbs upward force at the middle (that is on a total system weight of perhaps 3000 lbs, is that right?) Excessive upward load would be very very bad. If you are not comfortable, then practice jacking up (somehow) before showtime.
Also crvz: As you consider a frame consisting of 2x8 horizontal members, consider means to support in the "œweak axis" over such a long span. In earthquakes, the girders in your basement wish to rotate about the weak axis to releave the excess load, thus we install blocking or double-diagonal bracing to address such. Whatever you decide, mid-span vertical support is my recommendation on any system longer than say 4 feet. Again, there are experts out there with A LOT more hands on experience than I, but this is some 2 cents worth for design consideration.
After feeling some guilt since my post last night, I have decided the least I can do is offer a solution, but first, I have a question: Did you notice your lower cabinet doors suffer misalignment and/or difficulty to open/close immediately upon loading with water? I would predict you would have noticed something different right away ... but perhaps this is not the case?
Regardless, IF you feel you may wish to bolster your frame, then your setup seems suitable to accept a fairly simple retrofit, as follows:
Consider a new support, with special attention for installation on a system which is already under full load and deflecting. Obviously, if you could magically go back to the day before your tank arrived (during that snow storm for example) you could simply add a pair of 4x4 columns. But since you are "œin the wet" I suggest including 4x4 columns including screw jacks (http://www.ellisok.com/ellisok/timberjackproducts_screwjacks.html):
The concept is shown on the attached but I recommend two columns, one on each end. And of course the horizontal 4x4 should support your midspan member seems very well positions (and fastened to the adjoining longitudinal 2x4s). Obviously, all of this will add some congestion (but not much actually?) to your lower cabinet. I worry about the ability to shoehorn in the new support to bear under the longitudinal 2x4 which is on the front of your cabinet; will it work?
I suggest some sort of plywood platform at bottom which is anchors/screwed in place to assure no sliding, and then screw/bolt the screw jacks (I guess you could bolt the bottom plates of the timber jacks to your nice wood floor as well!). You must of course mitigate for Murphy's Law by adding fasters adequately across your retrofit. If possible, I drain what you can (partial seems just fine) prior to jacking up the midspan. That can be precarious because it's very difficult to understand just how much upward load you are applying as you screw up the timber jacks. You're probably going to apply say 1000 lbs upward force at the middle (that is on a total system weight of perhaps 3000 lbs, is that right?) Excessive upward load would be very very bad. If you are not comfortable, then practice jacking up (somehow) before showtime.
Also crvz: As you consider a frame consisting of 2x8 horizontal members, consider means to support in the "œweak axis" over such a long span. In earthquakes, the girders in your basement wish to rotate about the weak axis to releave the excess load, thus we install blocking or double-diagonal bracing to address such. Whatever you decide, mid-span vertical support is my recommendation on any system longer than say 4 feet. Again, there are experts out there with A LOT more hands on experience than I, but this is some 2 cents worth for design consideration.
Attachments
prop-frags
SPS Slave
Thanks for posting on our thread, Paul. Good to have you along.
Here are the answers to your questions:
1) Do a search here on "herbie drain" on google, or check out this video.
2) Do a search on "durso standpipe" or look here
3) I'm no engineer, but I will admit to being both a bit confused and concerned by your statements. See pictures below.
4) I'll take some updated pics of the sump room this weekend and post them up for you guys.
About the stand...
Again, I'm no engineer, but have been doing this hobby for many, many years and to me the stand seems very solid and adequate. It was built by a carpenter who has built stands for systems much larger than mine (900+ gals), so I have a lot of confidence there. That said, I'm always open to ideas and thoughts of others, particularly as they relate to improvements (particularly in structural safety or fault-tolerance).
The stand has two vertical 2x4s on each corner, with edge-wise mounted 2x4s atop those corner supports. On top of those, is another flat mounted 2x4 along all four lengths on which the tank sits. Another edge-wise mounted 2x4 runs across the middle/top of the stand to provide added strength and prevention of any twisting of the length-wise spans. Each corner is also reinforced with corner tabs that add strength and support to the corner joints. The stand is screwed into the wall at each stud along it's entire length (top and bottom), and also joined into the entire cabinet structure to provide shear strength across both axis.
Here are some detailed pictures that hopefully provide some additional detail:
This first shot is looking at the back-right corner:
Looking along the front span at the left front corner:
Here's the center span looking towards the front:
Some detail of the right front corner:
Another pic of the center span looking towards the right front corner:
Last edited by a moderator:
Mike, clearly I was working under assumption you had ONE 2x4 beam on each side, which I deduced looking at that pic of your frame on your Jan 22 post. From your pics above, you have far greater structural capacity in this beam PLUS looks like a weight bearing column 2x4 between your doors. Also, if your back 2x4 beam is anchored into wall (plus the flat 2x4 above) that is significant structural capacity. Now that I think about it, the deflection I alluded to would have immediately presented itself to you upon load, which it did not. Sorry for the confusion and thanks for the answers.
imarkspeed
New member
Wow!!!
prop-frags
SPS Slave
The rationale for having separate drains is twofold.
1) Herbie drains are full-siphon, meaning no air is mixed with the water as it is pulled down to the sump. This is essential for keeping the drain silent, and maximizing the flow rates.
2) If the herbies fail (clog, etc.), there needs to be another drain to act as failsafe and accept the flow. This happens routinely when the pumps first restart. It takes several seconds for the herbies to develop full siphon and handle the full flow of the return pump, so the secondary drains normally fill when the return pump is restarted.
prop-frags
SPS Slave
Chris,
I think that's a good idea for piece of mind and extra strength (can there ever really be overkill?) :spin3:
You could also use 4x4 in the corners. Paul had a good idea about the support column in the center of the two main 6' beams. That would be fine for our build, since we don't really have much under the stand. If you need to get a sump, and all your gear under your stand, well then that becomes a very different design constraint.
prop-frags
SPS Slave
Paul, thanks again for your detailed info. I totally understand your rationale. The original pictures weren't very good, nor did they show how the final design was implemented.
The 2x4 that spans the front and rear beams isn't really load-bearing, if you mean that the tank bottom sits flush on it, as it does not. But I do not know if by virtue of having that support anchoring the two spans together in some way does provide extra load-bearing strength, I'd love to understand more about that. (I'm such a noob on such things).
As far as the deflection, thanks for the confirmation. That was the main source of my confusion, as I was thinking that I would at least see some symptom of it (either visible bend in the beams, or like you said, doors no longer being true, etc.).
crvz
Team RC
Seeing those pictures above somewhat withdraws my comment... I didnt see that central support between the doors. That should help with deflection as I was implying. But, you may not see a lot of deflection if the load is being taken up by the trim that the tank sits in.
prop-frags
SPS Slave
Ashton, thanks so much! We're really enjoying sitting back a little now and watching the tank instead of being under or inside of it
talk about your forehead wiping "phew" moments...
Totally agree! There is so much to learn and consider with bigger setups. All of our friends here have been incredibly helpful. We would have made some serious mistakes without all the help and advice we've gotten here.
:wave:
prop-frags
SPS Slave
Time for an update!
Since we've been working on the tank a while, there's been a few things we've noticed that we wanted to change up.
Firstly, let's talk about the standard 300DD overflow plumbing. The return pipe has a 90 degree threaded fitting at the top with a pre-drilled siphon break hole. This needs to be replaced. If your return pump has any pressure whatsoever, it will result in a gushing stream hitting the overflow creating a loud annoying noise and splashing. Since we're using herbie drains, we replace the stock 90 degree fitting with one that has no hole drilled in it, and instead drilled out the vertical pipe itself just above the top of the herbie drain. That way, we get the siphon break we need, and the stream of water is under the water and thus no more annoying noise. Here's the modded pipe with our new flow accelerator attached:
Several of you have asked about our remote sump room. So here are a few new pics of that. Firstly a shot looking head on into the sump room:
A little detail so you can see the main return pump (on the right) and the chiller pump (on the left):
Here's a shot looking to the left of the sump, at the 75g frag tank/refugium:
Looking right at the "wall-o-electronics"
Here's another view showing the R/O and top-off vat
Detail of the left side of the sump:
Detail of the right side of the sump:
Since we've been working on the tank a while, there's been a few things we've noticed that we wanted to change up.
Firstly, let's talk about the standard 300DD overflow plumbing. The return pipe has a 90 degree threaded fitting at the top with a pre-drilled siphon break hole. This needs to be replaced. If your return pump has any pressure whatsoever, it will result in a gushing stream hitting the overflow creating a loud annoying noise and splashing. Since we're using herbie drains, we replace the stock 90 degree fitting with one that has no hole drilled in it, and instead drilled out the vertical pipe itself just above the top of the herbie drain. That way, we get the siphon break we need, and the stream of water is under the water and thus no more annoying noise. Here's the modded pipe with our new flow accelerator attached:
Several of you have asked about our remote sump room. So here are a few new pics of that. Firstly a shot looking head on into the sump room:
A little detail so you can see the main return pump (on the right) and the chiller pump (on the left):
Here's a shot looking to the left of the sump, at the 75g frag tank/refugium:
Looking right at the "wall-o-electronics"
Here's another view showing the R/O and top-off vat
Detail of the left side of the sump:
Detail of the right side of the sump:
Last edited by a moderator:
prop-frags
SPS Slave
We also finally got our new sand delivered:
We rinsed the sand about 5 times before we added it to the tank, and still wound up with this:
After about a day, everything settled down, we raked it out smooth, and things are looking much better!
We rinsed the sand about 5 times before we added it to the tank, and still wound up with this:
After about a day, everything settled down, we raked it out smooth, and things are looking much better!
Last edited by a moderator:
Taqpol
New member
This looks great! I had read through this build once before but forgot everything, so I just finished going back through it. Now I'm subscribed!
I really feel like my impending build (30" wide 220 gallon, fish room in a closet to the side of the tank) is going to be mirroring this a lot. Are your horizontal pipes that go from the overflow to the fish room sloped at all? If so, how much? Do you think its really necessary for your type of overflow?
I really feel like my impending build (30" wide 220 gallon, fish room in a closet to the side of the tank) is going to be mirroring this a lot. Are your horizontal pipes that go from the overflow to the fish room sloped at all? If so, how much? Do you think its really necessary for your type of overflow?
Similar threads
