miracle mud?
- Thread starter shecky79
- Start date
SUPPOReefer
New member
So if you want to grow seagrass, spend the money. If you don't, there is no need for it. That seems to be the consensus.
I never claimed that a skimmerless system cannot be done without a MM. Just don't understand this negative attitude towards MM. One person sais sth and then the rest is just repeating like parrots: snake oil, snake oil, without even trying it themselves. Argument that MM idea is 11 y.old is a nonsense. How old are protein skimmers? Does it mean they are not efficient any more?
And by the way. I read this chapter like any other in this book. Many times.
Don't understand why you keep mentioning bioballs when I didn't even mentioned them. Probably you want to use another "parrot" argument: "bioballs are bad" and in this way discredit my claims.
I never claimed that a skimmerless system cannot be done without a MM. Just don't understand this negative attitude towards MM. One person sais sth and then the rest is just repeating like parrots: snake oil, snake oil, without even trying it themselves. Argument that MM idea is 11 y.old is a nonsense. How old are protein skimmers? Does it mean they are not efficient any more?
And by the way. I read this chapter like any other in this book. Many times.
Don't understand why you keep mentioning bioballs when I didn't even mentioned them. Probably you want to use another "parrot" argument: "bioballs are bad" and in this way discredit my claims.
And one more thing. I've had a tank with mud before. It was not MM mud but a mud that I have collected myself in Kenya to keep some seegrass. I put a couple of kilograms under a gravel where I had seagras in an sps tank and guess what? nothing happened. Here is a pic.
I never said it was snake oil;so, don't attribute that to me.
It's silt like silica with high iron and maganese. I don't know what the Miracle is. Iron is probably harmless and may benefit some macro algae but there are easier ways to get it via dosing or just feeding the tank. Silica doesn't promote macro algae. Elevated levels usually create problems with diatoms.
The Reef Aqairum Vol 3 is somewhat critical of it and the system used to support it and does not make a case for it as implied in your post.
It's expensive but folks are certainly free to try it as I am to express my opinion without rude treatment.
You did mention bioballs in your post btw. I suggest you read it. The point is the extra nitrate may account for the algae boost as much as the mud. If I wanted to say "bioballs are bad" I would have said so but that is not my intention..
You are beggining toargue with yourself or with things you wish I said but haven't. Please stop putting works in my mouth and read more carefully.
The mud is more of a mess than a help ,imo. I don't use substrate under algae anymore whether sand or mud. It's more trouble than it's worth . Anoxia and organic buildups there are a likely issue .
As for the age of the noted discussion of the system in the Reef Aquarium Vol 3 . If the mud was as effective as skimmers per your analogy , I think you'd see a lot more folks using it after 11yrs of marketing.
And by the way. I read this chapter like any other in this book. Many times.
Don't understand why you keep mentioning bioballs when I didn't even mentioned them. Probably you want to use another "parrot" argument: "bioballs are bad" and in this way discredit my claims.
I never claimed that a skimmerless system cannot be done without a MM. Just don't understand this negative attitude towards MM. One person sais sth and then the rest is just repeating like parrots: snake oil, snake oil, without even trying it themselves. Argument that MM idea is 11 y.old is a nonsense. How old are protein skimmers? Does it mean they are not efficient any more?
And by the way. I read this chapter like any other in this book. Many times.
Don't understand why you keep mentioning bioballs when I didn't even mentioned them. Probably you want to use another "parrot" argument: "bioballs are bad" and in this way discredit my claims.
And one more thing. I've had a tank with mud before. It was not MM mud but a mud that I have collected myself in Kenya to keep some seegrass. I put a couple of kilograms under a gravel where I had seagras in an sps tank and guess what? nothing happened. Here is a pic.
I never said it was snake oil;so, don't attribute that to me.
It's silt like silica with high iron and maganese. I don't know what the Miracle is. Iron is probably harmless and may benefit some macro algae but there are easier ways to get it via dosing or just feeding the tank. Silica doesn't promote macro algae. Elevated levels usually create problems with diatoms.
The Reef Aqairum Vol 3 is somewhat critical of it and the system used to support it and does not make a case for it as implied in your post.
It's expensive but folks are certainly free to try it as I am to express my opinion without rude treatment.
You did mention bioballs in your post btw. I suggest you read it. The point is the extra nitrate may account for the algae boost as much as the mud. If I wanted to say "bioballs are bad" I would have said so but that is not my intention..
You are beggining toargue with yourself or with things you wish I said but haven't. Please stop putting works in my mouth and read more carefully.
The mud is more of a mess than a help ,imo. I don't use substrate under algae anymore whether sand or mud. It's more trouble than it's worth . Anoxia and organic buildups there are a likely issue .
As for the age of the noted discussion of the system in the Reef Aquarium Vol 3 . If the mud was as effective as skimmers per your analogy , I think you'd see a lot more folks using it after 11yrs of marketing.
RoWall
Member
Yes I mentioned bioballs as a reply to you mentioning it. I read carefully. I just prefer to have discussion with people that think for theirselves, not copy someone elses, often erroneous, opinions.
And there was enough examples of that in this thread so I felt like reacting to this.
I don't put words in your mouth, I am free to express my feelings, suspitions and thoughts just as you are free to reply to them.
If I was rude than I'm sorry, I didn't mean to.
That's what I had to say in this topic.
You guys can continue to have this monologue on how worthless the MM is and how smart you are at avoiding unnecessary costs when it comes to reefkeeping.
Just one last pic of an aquarium system run on a "worthless", "snake oil" Miracle Mud:
And there was enough examples of that in this thread so I felt like reacting to this.
I don't put words in your mouth, I am free to express my feelings, suspitions and thoughts just as you are free to reply to them.
If I was rude than I'm sorry, I didn't mean to.
That's what I had to say in this topic.
You guys can continue to have this monologue on how worthless the MM is and how smart you are at avoiding unnecessary costs when it comes to reefkeeping.
Just one last pic of an aquarium system run on a "worthless", "snake oil" Miracle Mud:
Attachments
Ok ,let's move on. Your apology for rudeness is accepted.
For clarification, I mentioned the bioballs only because they were an integral part of the miracle mud system described in the Reef Aaurium Vol 3 which was cited as eveidence of miracle mud "works" and a nitrate producing trickle bio ball system would impact algae with or without substrate.
I do not parrot,echo or make judgemental statements like" snake oil".I do give my opinion and whatever facts I can find on how things work,ie what they can and can't do based on study ,experience and the experience of others.I have no agenda here other than to learn and share. I always hope to find something new in these discussions but that's just not the case with the miracle mud from the information presented so far.It is what it is ;mostly silica and iron and some impurities posing as a miracle I suspect.
For clarification, I mentioned the bioballs only because they were an integral part of the miracle mud system described in the Reef Aaurium Vol 3 which was cited as eveidence of miracle mud "works" and a nitrate producing trickle bio ball system would impact algae with or without substrate.
I do not parrot,echo or make judgemental statements like" snake oil".I do give my opinion and whatever facts I can find on how things work,ie what they can and can't do based on study ,experience and the experience of others.I have no agenda here other than to learn and share. I always hope to find something new in these discussions but that's just not the case with the miracle mud from the information presented so far.It is what it is ;mostly silica and iron and some impurities posing as a miracle I suspect.
I am not sure who has said, "Miracle Mud doesn't work". I haven't. I don't think it does anything special, and I haven't seen any evidence that it does. Personally, I'd spend my money on cheaper substrates, but to each his own. A mud substrate can be very useful for seagrasses or mangroves. I don't think either seagrasses or mangroves are very useful in terms of nutrient control, but they can be very pretty.
Is it a possibility that a Miracle Mud bed refugium can replicate the same nitrate reducing effects of a remote deep sand bed, with less substrate, due to smaller granule sizes creating a more tightly compacted substrate?
Anecdotally, this is the effect I observed while running a miracle mud refugium in a previous tank. (disclaimer: I don't run MM now)
Anecdotally, this is the effect I observed while running a miracle mud refugium in a previous tank. (disclaimer: I don't run MM now)
Ted_C
Active member
I'm just throwing this out there - Not sure if it applies or not.
If it's truly mud - then the particle size is extremely small, yes? It supports sort of a colloidal suspension in water. The spacing between the molecules or particles of mud in a colloidal suspension is supposed to be perfect for trapping certain sized cations (like CA+, Mg+, Sr+, Ba+ ).
So in effect (theoretically at least) - this mud could be used as a buffer - holding the beneficial small cations the tanks need and letting the majority (not 100% mind you) of the others go right on past. Then when tank parameters change (the Ca drops) - the mud forms an equilibrium with the water flowing past and releases some of the stored Ca Cations.
This would work differently from a sand bed - as there's no buffering capacity (other than the dissolution of CaCO3). It can't hold on to the Ca, Mg and Sr that's passing through it.
If it's truly mud - then the particle size is extremely small, yes? It supports sort of a colloidal suspension in water. The spacing between the molecules or particles of mud in a colloidal suspension is supposed to be perfect for trapping certain sized cations (like CA+, Mg+, Sr+, Ba+ ).
So in effect (theoretically at least) - this mud could be used as a buffer - holding the beneficial small cations the tanks need and letting the majority (not 100% mind you) of the others go right on past. Then when tank parameters change (the Ca drops) - the mud forms an equilibrium with the water flowing past and releases some of the stored Ca Cations.
This would work differently from a sand bed - as there's no buffering capacity (other than the dissolution of CaCO3). It can't hold on to the Ca, Mg and Sr that's passing through it.
driver3490
New member
Well it seems MM can raise more ire than religion and as much as politics!!
Like I told my Dad after THE talk, I gotta try it now just to see for myself.. It has been my exdperience there are good and bad elements to anything in a aquarium fresh or salt.
Like I told my Dad after THE talk, I gotta try it now just to see for myself.. It has been my exdperience there are good and bad elements to anything in a aquarium fresh or salt.
Haha!!
brad65ford
New member
most recent review on miracle mud, impressive regarding Mike's tanks and husbandry, seems he swears by this stuff. I do believe it works if done correctly since its a sink imo, only once i've got a sink to work well for me. Doing BB its easy compared to running these refug system imo.
https://************.com/2015/05/16/ecosystem-aquarium-method-miracle-mud/
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3GpMM5Gn-fE
https://************.com/2015/05/16/ecosystem-aquarium-method-miracle-mud/
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3GpMM5Gn-fE
