mixing horses from different suppliers

[jklaw]

hi everybody,
im getting ready to order a bunch of seahorses for my 125 reef. i'd like to get them from draco and seahorsesource. is it a problem to do so? i feel like these are both reputable suppliers so it shouldn't be a problem, but i've heard some people advising to only buy them from a single source.
thanks,
john

 

[ann83]

First, seahorses and anemones will NOT coexist. You'll have to get rid of the rose bta or else it will be eating expensive meals for a while with you providing it all those yummy stupid seahorses to eat. That being said, if you plan on getting rid of the bta, then here is my input.

Why do you want to order from more than one source? If it is so that you can have several different species, then you have a bigger issue than different sources. Different species of seahorse carry different strains of bacteria, and while the bacteria is asymptomatic in the host seahorse, it can cause illness and death in other species of seahorse, so you risk losing all of your seahorses when you mix species. The same goes with mixing seahorses with pipefish. This is also why people recommend only one source, since seahorses from different areas are exposed to different bacteria. If you get your seahorses all from one source, and all one species, you have the best chance of having seahorses that have all been exposed to the same bacteria... so no illness. Different sources could introduce the horses to different bacterial strains and could cause illness.

What temperature do you keep your reef at? The diseases that seahorses are most vulnerable to are more aggressive at temperatures above 74 degrees. So unless you are keeping your reef at 74 or lower, you could have a lot of sick seahorses on your hands. Water flow is also a problem since seahorses aren't strong swimmers and will get blown around in typical reef flow. Seahorses typically need no more than 5x turnover unless the flow is broken up alot by spraybars.

Also, what else (besides the anemone you will be getting rid of) do you keep in your reef? Most reefs have things that could easily injure seahorses. Seahorses are not the smartest fish, and that combined with the fact that they drag their tails around on rock and substrate and try to hitch to everything, means that you have to seahorse-proof a tank the same way you'd toddler-proof a house. A seahorse tank shouldn't have any stinging corals, because they will try to wrap their tails around them, and a sting on a seahorse tail can easily cause death. Crabs and clams also can cause injury to seahorses.

Hope this helped.

 

[jklaw]

i dont plan on getting rid of the anemone. i have a multi banded pipefish and two african bluestripe pipefish and they are smart enough to stay away from the anemone and i think the seahorses will too. if they don't and i lose a seahorse i'll pull the anemone out. i've got a lot of flow, but seahorses are often found in grass beds and surf zones, so i also don't believe the argument that they are poor swimmers, but of course, if there is a problem i can reduce the flow. my reef temp is running about 75.5 to 77, so that concerns me. i have some H. Capensis in a small tank and while they supposed can tolerate up to 73F, i have noticed that they do much better at 68F. they are definitely temperature sensivitive. they eat better and are more active at the right temp. i'll have to talk to draco or shsource about which species tolerate the higher temp. i also wonder if any of them have mixed their species. i also dont buy the argument that you have to toddler proof a seahorse tank. i mean i don't think i can have predators in the tank, but i don't think seahorses are retarded either. right now, i just have small gobies, firefish, two percula's that live in their anemone, a few hard corals but mainly softies. i probably will get some clams once i upgrade my lights to t-5's from the vho's that i have now.

 

[ann83]

The temp isn't about tolerating. It is about vibrio reproducing at a higher rate and mutating to produce different protiens at temperatures higher than 74. This goes for all SH. If the water is kept very clean though, and the seahorses don't have any stress, you should be able to keep them at higher temps. However, it seems like you plan on taking a lot of risks with the SH, and that equates to stress, so I'd definately stock up on seahorse medications. My Reidi are "tropical" and found in the wild near the equator, but they do not like the temperatures going above 74 degrees in the tank. At 76 there is a marked difference in their behavior and breathing pattern.

How do you plan on feeding the SH with all the flow and the clowns?

 

[jklaw]

i ended up ordering erectus from draco. he said they keep their seahorses at 78, so i shouldn't have a problem. usually during the day i shut off the sump and recirculation pump, so i don't have the low hum noise in my office. so the rest of the flow is from two tunze stream pumps that have a 15 minute feeding shut off button. the percula clowns really dont stray very far from their anemone, they tend to eat food that comes to them rather than going after it. i'll probably set up a lttle feeding station. what kind of tank do you have? how long have you kept your seahorses? any success in raising fry? i went with erectus instead of reidi because i've heard the fry are easier to raise. i had some a couple years ago in a smaller tank and it was so much fun to feed bbs to the fry.

 

[ann83]

My Reidi are still very young. I've had them 5 months, and they are around 8 months old. Right now I am only keeping two females, so no fry. I may add a male or two later, but I am too busy to raise fry right now and I'd like to wait until fall when I can bring QT temperatures down to 72 or so. My girls don't dance with eachother, but they do interact, and they dance for me plenty... so I don't really feel like I'm missing out by not having males with them.

FYI, Draco's Erectus are no easier to raise than Reidi and Kuda. Draco sells Northern Erectus. Their fry are pelagic and much smaller. Southern Erectus (what Seahorse Source sells) have fry that are benthic (like capensis) so they are larger and hitch at birth and are much easier to raise. For northern erectus fry, you will have to start them on enriched rotifers or small strain bbs as a starter food. Regular bbs will be too large.

 

[jklaw]

Wow. that is really good to know. the erectus i had before we're southern so they hitched right away and were big enough to eat bbs. i might have to call jorge and cancel. hmmmm.....

 

[ann83]

I think Jorge is working on building a breeding stock of Southern Erectus, but I am not sure if they are ready yet. You can ask if you can get some instead of your northern before you cancel entirely.

 

[captainandy]

I started with 4 erectus from Jorge and a couple of months ago I added 2 reidi from Seahorse source. All in a SH only tank that's kept at 76 degrees. All doing great but boy, those erectus get big. By the way, the post about the different bacterial strains acting as pathogens when mixing sources. Is that a scientifically proven fact or anecdotal "fish tale"?

 

[ann83]

Not a fact, but not a "fish tale" either. There are many strains of vibrio, and different species of seahorses do carry different strains. It is also pretty well known that mixing species usually doesn't turn out well. If you do a search there will be lots of threads. Here is one http://forum.seahorse.org/index.php?showtopic=26202&hl=mixing+species

 

[captainandy]

I''ve read those threads. Not sure what to make of them. we all, unfortunately, lose critters from time to time and we don't always reach the correct conclusion about why it happened.

 

[ann83]

Just want to make sure the information is out there for jklaw before he buys. Everyone is capable of making their own decisions based on the info.

 

[pledosophy]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10068416#post10068416 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by jklaw
i dont plan on getting rid of the anemone. i have a multi banded pipefish and two african bluestripe pipefish and they are smart enough to stay away from the anemone and i think the seahorses will too.

. . . but i don't think seahorses are retarded either . . .

You are mistaken, and a creature will pay for you error in logic with it's life.

What exactly do you mean by retarded? Are you confusing a word referencing a creature or person with mental or physical handicaps with the word stupid?

Here is a link I think you would benefit from.

IME a dime size aiptasia is capable of killing a 8" reidi, an anemome will have no problem doing so.

If your not willing to make the necessary provisions for keeping marine creatures maybe this is the wrong hobby for you. Perhaps you would have more luck with a pet rock.

Good luck.

 

[pledosophy]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10070892#post10070892 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by captainandy
By the way, the post about the different bacterial strains acting as pathogens when mixing sources. Is that a scientifically proven fact or anecdotal "fish tale"?

Research directly related to seahorses has been published by Dr. Belli who has a PHD in pathology, as well as by Jeff Mitchell from Shedd's Aquarium, and many more.

Other scientific data regarding various strains of vibrio, the bacteria's effect on different ecosystems, the ability for crustaceans, including copepods, to carry the bacteria, the temperature effect on the bacteria, and the effects of exposure to the bacteria on many lifeforms with no previous resistance to a particular strain have been published in scientific journals hundreds of thousands of times. It's not like it's a secret.

The thread linked was just part of a larger project to attempt to catalog the hobbyist success rate with mixing species. I have been working on the project for two years. Still a work in progress. One day I will have enough results to actually write the paper.

HTH

 

[ModemMan8]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10068416#post10068416 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by jklaw
I dont plan on getting rid of the anemone. i have a multi banded pipefish and two african bluestripe pipefish and they are smart enough to stay away from the anemone and i think the seahorses will too. if they don't and i lose a seahorse i'll pull the anemone out.

Your arrogant attitude toward the lives and/or well being of your potential seahorses sounds pretty careless. Why do you keep marine aquaria?

Anemones are dangerous to seahorses. Your tank is an artificial closed system. Captive bred seahorses are born and raised in sterile, barebottom tanks with plastic hitches without any interaction with potential risks. (BTW adding clams to your seahorse tank is a disaster waiting to happen. A clam can clamp on to a seahorse tail in a hearbeat). IMO, keeping fish safe from the potential hazards of intakes, powerheads, heaters and owner ignorance is simply a responsibility of the hobby.

 

[jklaw]

i talked to jorge and he said the large and extra large he currently has are southern erectus.

 

[David123]

I agree with the above statements, seahorses will die with an anenome, plain and simple.

Out of interest, what species of seahorse lives in surf zones.

 

[ReefNutPA]

David.... good to see you here!

Tom

 

[scapes]

maybe Jorge won't sell them to him knowing that his seahorses are going to be coral food.

 

[David123]

Andy,
you must understand seahorses coz you say you have them. They are a pretty laid back critter, they cruz, are pretty slow, and when they want to go slower, they just brab hold of whatever they come in contact with. Including unguarded heaters, and hang on and burn severly.

I don't know anenomie species, I do know that some will give me a screaming red hot pain that makes me want to cut my hand off, some do next to nothing.

I alway err on the side of caution.

A seahorse in an anenomie tank, will one day land on the anenomie, make no mistake, its not a maybe, or they are not stupid enuf to do that, they are, they will, and they will most probably die.

Even if they dont, do you want to be the cause of immense pain to a living creature.

Thanks Tom.