Monaco style tanks??

Lots of other knowledgable people claim that nitrate levels are in fact reduced in plenum systems on the same level that they are reduced in DSB systems. I have no experience with plenums first hand. I haven't looked at the Toonen study in quite a while but I will again when I get time.
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10994059#post10994059 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by fishdoc11
Your contradicting yourself dreamreefer;)

The anaerobic bacteria that are at work in the lower levels of a DSB or plenum or inside live rock convert nitrate to nitrogen gas. Aerobic bacteria convert ammonia to nitrite and nitrate:)

Chris

I think we're beginning to mix terms a bit guys.

Nitrifying bacteria use aerobic metabolic pathways.

Denitrifying bacteria use anaerobic metabolic pathways.

This is very, very different from saying that aerobic bacteria cause nitrification and anaerobic bacteria cause denitrification. There are many, many aerobic bacteria, and most have nothing to do with nitrification. Likewise, there are many, many anaerobic bacteria and most have nothing to do with denitrification.

cj
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10994081#post10994081 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by MCsaxmaster
I think we're beginning to mix terms a bit guys.

Nitrifying bacteria use aerobic metabolic pathways.

Denitrifying bacteria use anaerobic metabolic pathways.

This is very, very different from saying that aerobic bacteria cause nitrification and anaerobic bacteria cause denitrification. There are many, many aerobic bacteria, and most have nothing to do with nitrification. Likewise, there are many, many anaerobic bacteria and most have nothing to do with denitrification.

cj

Your terminology IS more correct.

My intention was not to say that all of any type of bacteria perform a ceartain function and most of us know that is far from the case. I was merely trying to get a point across in the simplest terms I could:)

Chris
 
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my correction:

I did make a mistake by naming some bacteria (nitrosonomas and nitrobacter), yes these are aerobic bacteria that coverts ammonia to nitrites and nitrates

I probably want to mean Paracoccus denitrificans, Thiobacillus denitrificans for the anaerobic stuff...I guess this is why I sound contradicting to myself...thanks for pointing that out...

MC, the test was done at waikiki aquarium by Delbeek, I don't remember if it was 2 tanks setup the same or Ijust 1 tank, that had a dsb changed to plenum or vice versa. Anyway, his testbed was quite credible (at least only humanly possible),,,thanks for your 2 cents. this is how we all learn right?
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10994901#post10994901 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by dreamreefer
MC, the test was done at waikiki aquarium by Delbeek, I don't remember if it was 2 tanks setup the same or Ijust 1 tank, that had a dsb changed to plenum or vice versa. Anyway, his testbed was quite credible (at least only humanly possible),,,thanks for your 2 cents. this is how we all learn right?

But there's no such thing as two tanks that are setup the same producing the same results. There is inherent variation in any system, espeically something like a reef tank. A sample size of n = 1 is meaningless. ANYTHING can happen once. If he had setup 10 or 15 tanks using each method and applied the same husbandry we might be able to get useful information. Setting up two tanks with the same equipment but using a plenum in one and not the other can't provide useful information. If both had been setup with a plenum or both had been setup without one it would not be at all surprising if the two tanks developed differently.

cj
 
If you're vacuming the sandbed you don't have a traditional plenum system--you have a vacumed sandbed system

I don't know if your trying to be funny, but that's an ignorant statement. Do you even know how to run a plenum system?
It needs to be vacumed once every two to three months. That's part of maintaining it long term.

Go ahead & follow that worthless study by Toonen. The study has nothing to do with phosphate accumulation, which will happen with any sandbed over time.

Any sandbed 3-4" will control nitrates, but if left unattended it will become loaded & create phosphate problems which in fact are a much worse problem than nitrates.
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10990470#post10990470 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by liveforphysics
I'm curious what you have against waterflow. Giving the plenum waterflow causes it to become a benethic zone, which quickly populates with animals that help improve water quality.

I want a near zero oxygen environment. If water flows that means oxygen will enter. Water will flow slowly thru aragonite lid.
I am doubting my idea of having this in my sump. It is such an inexpensive thing to make that I think it is worth doing. thank you for everything everyone. After hearing from everyone I do believe in plenums. In my eye the supporters of plenums seem to have a better argument.
 
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<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10997297#post10997297 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Big E
I don't know if your trying to be funny, but that's an ignorant statement. Do you even know how to run a plenum system?
It needs to be vacumed once every two to three months. That's part of maintaining it long term.

Go ahead & follow that worthless study by Toonen. The study has nothing to do with phosphate accumulation, which will happen with any sandbed over time.

Any sandbed 3-4" will control nitrates, but if left unattended it will become loaded & create phosphate problems which in fact are a much worse problem than nitrates.

Go back to the original descriptions of plenum systems by Jaubert and then tell me what you think ;)

Sandbeds in the original plenum systems are not disturbed. If your idea of a plenum system is one that is regularly vacumed it is a modification of the system.

Yes, of course sandbeds accumulate phosphorus over time. Every ecosystem on the planet accumulates phosphorus, mostly in living organisms and detritus ;)

In my eye the supporters of plenums seem to have a better argument.

What is that argument, may I ask? :D

cj
 
Lol, believe whatever you want, you're wrong. The way to maintain a plenum in hobbyists aquariums was widely communicated by Goemans, Sprung ect. years ago.

The original Monaco system flushes in fresh seawater everyday & doesn't use eggcrate either, so what's your point?

This is silly, I'm aruguing with someone who has never run a plenum successfully or has any idea how to setup & maintain one.
Anyone that thinks a DSB & plenum are the same & maintained the same are clueless.
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11005267#post11005267 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Big E
Lol, believe whatever you want, you're wrong. The way to maintain a plenum in hobbyists aquariums was widely communicated by Goemans, Sprung ect. years ago.

The original Monaco system flushes in fresh seawater everyday & doesn't use eggcrate either, so what's your point?

This is silly, I'm aruguing with someone who has never run a plenum successfully or has any idea how to setup & maintain one.
Anyone that thinks a DSB & plenum are the same & maintained the same are clueless.

Please see the article here for an adapted view of how to setup and maintain a plenum system by Sprung. Nowhere does it mention vacuming the sandbed.

Also, if one is meant to vacum the bed, why is a screen included in the design that prevents digging by burrowing animals?

Lastly, I have not insulted you, don't insult me. If you want to get personal, take it somewhere else because none of us care to hear it.

Chris
 
I haven't insulted you. I said anyone that doesn't know the difference between maintaining a DSB & a plenum is clueless. It's frustrating to try to help people set this up correctly, when some people that have NO experience, think they have all the anwsers.

Again, have you ever run a plenum successfully?

The link I provided above for Goemans book specifically says on page 24 to vacum up any detritus accumulation once a month & to vacum the whole bed every 2-3 months. He says not to go deeper than an inch.

Also, if one is meant to vacum the bed, why is a screen included in the design that prevents digging by burrowing animals?

The upper screen is for gobies or other burrowing fish that might go deeper than 2 inches into the bed. If you don't have any of these kind of fish you don't need that upper screen layer. I never used it.

The lower screen layer is for separating the void from the substrate.

Goemans popularized this method (which he got from Jaubert in Monaco) over ten years ago which he developed & tested for years. If you want to do it the correct way you follow his methods. I did this & it worked great for me. Sprung didn't, he decided to use animals to turn over the bed. He's running it like a DSB, which is incorrect.

Anyone that does it differently is doing it their own way & deviating from the succesful method. Any failures of the method is on the aquarist for not sticking to it.

You can debate it if you like, but I'm here to tell you if the plenum isn't vacumed it will accumulate detritus & over the years the bed will develop phosphate problems.

I'm done with this thread. If people want to continue to post erroneous information that's fine by me.
 
Yes, I've successfully run plenum systems. I've successfully run deep sandbed systems and barebottom systems too. I've helped to run deep crushed coral beds as well (against my recommendations).

Calling me and anyone that does not conform to your methodology "clueless" is most certainly an insult--how could it be anything else?

The systems in Monaco are not vacumed regularly. If Goemans recommends that then this is his recommendation, not Jaubert's.

Once again, my contention is that the plenum doesn't impact water quality based on my own experience, the experience of others and the experimental evidence we have. If you want to put a plenum in your tank go ahead. If you want to vacum your sandbed go ahead. If you want to dump an ounce of marinara sauce in the tank every week go ahead. I've never been one to tell people how to maintain their tanks because, ultimately, it's they that must deal with the consequences of their husbandry. My part, as I see it, is to provide useful information that will lead people to better success. As they say though, you can lead a horse to water...

Chris
 
alright guys, ease off...we're just trying to help a fellow reefer here right? stringcheese, listen and do what your gut feelings tell you, nothing is more valuable than first hand experience, you can listen all you want but sometimes we need to tinker a little to come to a solution that is best only for your system...
good luck.
 
I've been running a Jaubert/Berlin hybrid system (plenum with protein skimmer) for the last 4 yrs on my 75 gal. reef. I set it up according to GARF's bulletproof reef formula (as far as the plenum goes). I think the key is using the right size substrate--the special reef grade. The paphlet "Live Sand Secrets" by Goemans really sheds alot of light on the subject of plenums.
I have to say that I'll never set up another display without a plenum (or at least one in a large sump).
I've never vacuumed the plenum, but I do stir it once in a while to give the corals some detritus to eat.
It may be true that the plenum does contribute to Ca/alk levels, but it would never be enough for a tank with fast growing corals. If it were, it would have to dissolve at least a half inch a year in a sps tank (I've used most of a 25# bag of CaCl2 ice melter, a bunch of baking soda, and a few pounds of kalkwasser over the last 3 yrs--that's alot of solids). When I did measure for nitrate and phosphate, neither was measureable on my test kits--I haven't tested in probably a year because I haven't had any problems. I think the plenum is responsible for the nitrate reduction but I'm not sure about the phosphate--that may be from the kalk precipitating it (I use kalk for all of my top off water).
All I'm saying is, a plenum has worked very well for me and proven to be pretty low maintainence too. I run a pretty crappy skimmer (Kent Nautilus) and the SPS grow out of my tank.
 
grallster,

may be interesting if you stop your skimmer, and see what happens, that will be the real test. If it is as good as you say it is, and the skimmer is not doing much, then the plenum is really working. Of course all of this is relative, on bio-loads, feeding protocols, etc...I may think about running one in my new 200 gal setup...

Steve
 
Cool your jets people...we are here to learn and help each other.

[flamealert]
 
Here is a "LONG ONE" worth reading if you are interested in a Plenum system. It is a design allowing you to flush the plenum at intervals.

The thread get's a little heated at times, & I must say a bit funny also! But an interesting concept on a plenum system

I have decided to try this method & build one.
It has only been running several months, so it's hard to comment on it as of now, however there are a few members using one for several years that are posting good results.

The thread is an old one that was resurrected by a member using one, with an update on his results.

http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=289910

Here is a site I found after I built one, if you want to purchase one instead
http://www.aquaticeco.com/index.cfm/fuseaction/product.detail/iid/4957

Good Luck it's a long read,
But very interesting !!!!!!!!!!

Steve 926

:smokin:
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11009337#post11009337 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by dreamreefer
grallster,

may be interesting if you stop your skimmer, and see what happens, that will be the real test. If it is as good as you say it is, and the skimmer is not doing much, then the plenum is really working. Of course all of this is relative, on bio-loads, feeding protocols, etc...I may think about running one in my new 200 gal setup...

Steve

Yes, this is true--I have a very heavy coral bioload, but only 4 fish (one is a tang that poops as big as I do though). I do feed liberally (frozen food only--mosty mysis) but slowly and make sure it all gets eaten.
The skimmer probably pulls about a half inch of skimmate a week--I will keep it running if only for the extra gas exchange.
 
Steve926, that's a great read! didn't go thru all but got the idea...that is really interesting...


grall, if you do stop your skimmer, let us know how it goes!

Steve
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11009581#post11009581 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Nanook
Cool your jets people...we are here to learn and help each other.

<i><br>Here at Reef Central, we believe that dialogs between participants should be conducted in a friendly and helpful manner. If you disagree with a posting, please express yourself in a way that is conducive to further constructive dialog. Conversely, when you post on any given subject, you must be willing to accept constructive criticism without posting a hostile or inflammatory response. Personal attacks of any kind will not be tolerated. Please let’s work to insure that Reef Central remains a friendly and flame free site where everyone, especially newcomers, can feel free to post questions without fear of being unfairly criticized. Thank you for your cooperation.</i>

I keep my jets idling, so they're cool to the touch ;)
 
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