more tang arguments

Status
Not open for further replies.
= p

<a href="http://media.photobucket.com/image/tang police/icebryce/tangpolice.jpg?o=1" target="_blank"><img src="http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l91/icebryce/tangpolice.jpg" border="0"></a>
 
= p

<a href="http://media.photobucket.com/image/tang police/icebryce/tangpolice.jpg?o=1" target="_blank"><img src="http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l91/icebryce/tangpolice.jpg" border="0"></a>

That's pretty funny. Looks almost like three of the tangs I have in my 22g tank.
 
there is not a single expert on this thread. and if there is please show your credentials as such.

Really now -- what in your astute opinion would qualify a person as an expert? Would someone being in this hobby longer then you've been alive count?



Secondly, your attitude is getting really abrasive, suggest that you tone it done a bit. And don't bother sending me another PM telling me "dont threaten me" I had the old one you sent me.
 
Please do. I'd love to see what you do this time. I'll send you a leather if you want one. :thumbsup:
Thanks!! :D I just realized I fragged that gorgonian so many times for frag trades, I bet I can find someone at the reef club who can frag me back now.
 
I just posted the below in the Responsible Reefkeeping forum in a thread started on the same topic. I thought it important to post here since I have spent the last several weeks engaging in a very similar discussion and because I think it points out the flaws in the positions many have taken here who oppose minimum tank sizes for tangs.

I have been engaging in a protracted discussion of a very related issue in another thread in this forum and thus have recently put quite a bit of thought into such matters.

See, http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1932521&page=8

There are those who contend that discussions of appropriate tank size make no sense because this is a purely subjective issue incapeable of objective parameters based on substantial experience and reasonable consensus. Such folks argue that we can never replicate the open conditions of nature and therefore placing fish in a home aquarium is always inappropriately small and therefore not subject to minimum size requirements. These people also assert that everyone will never ever agree as to what size system is appropriate for a given species, and there will always be substantial differences of opinion, thereby making such determinations useless.

These postions are unjustified. As I often like to say, you may not get all people to agree with what is the appropriate size tank for a given species, but you can usually get virtually all of them to agree with what clearly is not. Determining what is an appropriate tank size for a species is not difficult or beyond determination. It has nothing to do with fish "happyness", "morality", nor how closely the system replicates natural conditions. It is has to all to with a singular result of inappropriate tank size --fish stress. A fish who is very stressed will engage in varying degrees (depending on the species) of abnormal behavior and/or suffer negative physical effects which can manefest themselves in a number of ways, including, without limitation, aggression, excessive hiding, excessive pacing, greatly impaired immune response and susceptability to disease, reduced feeding, faded color, and stunted size. Based on the reports from many hobbyists who have kept certain fish for years, we are able to determine which tank sizes are apprppriately sized for a given species, which is very simply those sized tanks which do not cause severe stress and these manefested symptoms.

Different groups of fish tolerate such stress to varying degrees. For example, as the link to the below article explains, large angels cannot tolerate this stress well and often succumb to disease when forced to endure it. The same can be largely said of tangs based on everything that I have read, although not to perhaps as severe of a degree. Physically, tangs have a real disadvantage which may explain, in part, why they are so susceptable to disease and parasites. Tangs have a very thin to non-existent slime coat. Slime coats are very important in assisting fish to resist parasites and disease. Severe stress combined with the lack of protection from a slime coat is a recipe for tangs becoming sick.

In summary, a tank is too small for a given species if it causes severe stress which manefests itself in one of the ways described above. Some fish, like triggers and groupers, can tolerate such stress better than others; while large angels and tangs often succumb to disease when exposed to such stress. Therefore, you cannot severely undersize the system or overcrowd it when keeping these fish. At bare minimum. most fish also probably live greatly shortened life expectancies when forced to live with such stress just as people do when forced to live in difficult environmental conditions. Read the below article which willl help you understand why you cannot keep certakin fish in too small of a system. Undersizing a tank for a given species is not a moral issue. It is a health issue.

http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2008/1/fish
 
The aquarium industry doesn't "MAKE" tangs. They are living creatures that reproduce naturally and give berth to young fish. The aquarium industry doesn't even frequently breed most species of tangs, so the majority of them are simply caught in the wild - the furthest thing from being "made" to appeal to people with smaller tanks.

What people on here are concerned about is two things, mainly:
1. Avoiding the equivalent of having a puppy crated 24 hours / day and
2. Having tons of people keep tangs in tanks that are far to small to sustain them, and kill them off, then replacing them, continuously going through this cycle. This depletes the populations of tangs found in the wild and makes it more difficult and expensive for responsible keepers to find specimens.


the person meant to say tiny tanks
 
there is not a single expert on this thread. and if there is please show your credentials as such.
Unfortunately, anyone who has keep a damsel alive for a week, thinks that they are an expert....

The real experts don't have to advertise it, or prove it...

I thank them for all their help...
... the amount of 'expertise' on this forum is immeasurable!
 
Really now -- what in your astute opinion would qualify a person as an expert? Would someone being in this hobby longer then you've been alive count?



Secondly, your attitude is getting really abrasive, suggest that you tone it done a bit. And don't bother sending me another PM telling me "dont threaten me" I had the old one you sent me.

I doubt you been alive longer then i been alive. you have a phd in fish keeping? a masters maybe? then your no expert. your a advanced hobbiest and nothing more.[insults removed]
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Unfortunately, anyone who has keep a damsel alive for a week, thinks that they are an expert....

The real experts don't have to advertise it, or prove it...

I thank them for all their help...
... the amount of 'expertise' on this forum is immeasurable!


Moreover, the fundamental problem is that the real "experts" often outright lie and provide false, materially inaccurate, or incomplete information about minimum tank size. The leading reference books published by Scott Michaels on marine fish usually in all instances provide inaccurate minimum tank size information which is so grossly undersized in many instances that no experienced hobbyist would think it appropriate to keep such fish in such a small system. Moreover, the leading on-line fish vendor, Live Aquaria, who also maintains the peteducation.com website, in most instances has minimum tank size information which materially mirrors that of Scot Michaels while at the same time taking a leadership role in publishing pet educational materials that the company claims is relied upon by hobbyists, accademics, and researchers. The experts appear to be outright deceiving the hobbyists for financial gain. As such, you are much better relying on experienced hobbyists views here on minimum tank size for fish than those of these so-called "experts". In fact, when I recently made a big public stink about this issue with LIve Aquaria, they came forward and revised the minimim tank size information for a whole group of fish by well beyond 100% after providing the prior inaccurate information for years.
 
I doubt you been alive longer then i been alive. you have a phd in fish keeping? a masters maybe? then your no expert. your a advanced hobbiest and nothing more.stick that in your H crispa and smoke it.

facepalm.gif
sadwave.gif
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top