Multiple light cycles a day

I have toyed with the idea of putting some of my tanks on a 6/6 cycle, but the above post is why am leary - how will the frag respond when it leaves my system and ends up at its new home, which will most likely me a 12/12 scenario - this seems like it could lead to disaster. To the guys that run the short cycle - how do your frags fare when you trade them out?
 
as mentioned earlier in the post it's been studied and proven that corals dependency on light for photosynthesis increases steadily the first 3 hrs and sharply declines after 5 hrs, as long as they are going to a system with at least 5 hrs of lighting they'll do fine. the above problem isn't the photo period, it could be something caused by the change in photo period such as pH swings but not the photo period its self.
 
I second what Jet cat is saying.

The altered light cycle can have a cascade effect if you do not consider all the factors this will influence, but the lighting schedule itself is not going to hurt your corals.
My experience is it is helping them grow much faster.

But do consider all the ways your tank would be impacted by doing this.

Do you run your cooling system without a temp controller? If so turn off the fan or chiller when the lights are off. Otherwise you will freeze out your corals.

Is your dKH at 7 or lower? Bump it up to 10 (ish) or your pH value might be able to change to dangerous levels during your dark cycles.

Do you have lots of nuisance algae? Again, be careful. excess CO2 will then be available in the water when its dark and cause a ph lowering effect that can be very risky.

I am sure there are other situations.

Any of these things can also happen during the night when you are asleep. Just think through your systems requirements before you commit to doing something like this.

I just donated a hundred frags of zoanthids (four different types) and hairy mushrooms (Zoanthids were from the pictures I posted earlier in this thread)at a regional frag swap put on by my local reef club. If there was any concern on my part about the corals going into new tanks, I would have refrained from putting them where new hobbyists would be able to get ahold of them.

Please, again, make sure you think about all the ways this altered light cycle can impact your tank.

I think it helps my corals grow faster.

But, this is not a scientific study.

I could be wrong.

Only you can make the right decision for your own tank.
 
Does the study look at the need for the 'down time' as well? I've also seen studies that mention the 5 hour 'saturation point' for photosynthesis but I've never seen anything that discusses the importance (or lack thereof) of the non-photosynthetic period.
 
yes but i don't recall the exacts on it but IIRC CaCO3 depositing (skeletal growth) started as soon as photosynthesis ceased, the length of time it took to 'lay down' the new skeleton was very different for different corals. some LPS were only a few hours while some SPS were 4-5 hrs. I've searched for the article several times the last few days with no luck but i believe it was by Eric Borneman.
 
Sources and Mechanisms of Inorganic Carbon Transport for Coral Calcification and Photosynthesis
Furla, Galgani, Durand, and Allemand
The Journal of Experimental Biology 203, 3445â€"œ3457 (2000)

Full Article
http://jeb.biologists.org/cgi/reprint/203/22/3445

Look at the Figure 1 data graphs on page 4 ... ;)



These may also be of interest ...

Photobehavior of stony corals: responses to light spectra and intensity.
O. Levy, Z. Dubinsky and Y. Achituv
The Journal of Experimental Biology 206, 4041-4049 (2003)
http://jeb.biologists.org/cgi/conte...INDEX=0&sortspec=relevance&resourcetype=HWCIT

Diel `tuning' of coral metabolism: physiological responses to light cues.
O. Levy, Y. Achituv, Y. Z. Yacobi, Z. Dubinsky and N. Stambler
Journal of Experimental Biology 209, 273-283 (2006)
http://jeb.biologists.org/cgi/conte...INDEX=0&sortspec=relevance&resourcetype=HWCIT

Check out the in situ diel patterns in this last one, beginning with Figure 2:
http://jeb.biologists.org/content/vol209/issue2/images/large/JEB01983F2.jpeg



HTH
:thumbsup:
 
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just the photo periods. there was a study done that was posted several yrs back (sorry i don't recall whom it was) that stated coral growth (actual depositing of CaCO3) came during the dark hours, and their CaCO3 uptake from the water that was to be deposited happened after 3 hrs of lights (less then 3 hrs and you get no growth) and declined sharply after 5 hrs (longer then 5 hours minimal CaCO3 was taken in by the corals).

You may not see results because the calcification takes place in darkness, not when the photosynthesis is occurring. This is just assuming that the hottest part of the day is also the brightest.

At least this is what I see from the others.


yes but i don't recall the exacts on it but IIRC CaCO3 depositing (skeletal growth) started as soon as photosynthesis ceased, the length of time it took to 'lay down' the new skeleton was very different for different corals. some LPS were only a few hours while some SPS were 4-5 hrs. I've searched for the article several times the last few days with no luck but i believe it was by Eric Borneman.

I'm not sure where all of this came from (perhaps someone misunderstanding Eric or something else they read and passing along the info???) but you guys have been grossly misinformed.

Calcification in corals is ALWAYS taking place and is SUBSTANTIALLY faster in the light (when there is photosynthesis) than in the dark in most corals. In fact, on average most corals calcify 2 - 3x as fast in the light as they do in the dark, and for some the difference is much larger.

The amount of time it takes for calcium (the story with inorganic carbon is more complex) to be taken from the water and deposited in the skeleton is on the order of a few minutes, not hours. It takes a few minutes, at most, for the calcium to actually be transported, but it is used immediately.

Reef-building corals are able to build reefs BECAUSE of the increased rates of calcification that is somehow achieved through symbiosis, and most of the daily calcification is done during the day (though nighttime calcification is still a decent portion of the total).

See Meibom et al., 2006 for a fuller discussion of the role of photoperiod in calcification. There is no circadian rhytm controlling calcification in corals (it would seem). Calcification is slow in the dark and fast in the light. It takes a few minutes to reach the fast rate of calcification in the light after the lights are switched on, but only a few minutes. It takes a few minutes to drop down to the low rate of dark calcification when the lights are switched off, but only a few minutes. Longer photoperiod increases the amount of time at the higher rate of calcification, and hence increases daily rates of calcification, and vice versa. There's no reason to think that switching lights on and off (6 on, 6 off, 6 on, 6 off, etc.) should have any impact on calcification or be different from a single photoperiod of equivalent time.

Does the study look at the need for the 'down time' as well? I've also seen studies that mention the 5 hour 'saturation point' for photosynthesis but I've never seen anything that discusses the importance (or lack thereof) of the non-photosynthetic period.

This is another bit of misunderstanding/misinformation that keeps getting passed along. Corals in nature reach peak photosynthesis after a few hours because the sun is dim in the morning. The light intensity increases through the morning hours until about noon when it maxes out (assuming no clouds). This has nothing to do with the physiology of the corals or zoox. and is a result simply of the fact that the light is dim in the morning, so can't max out photosynthesis.

If you cover a coral with a black box and take the box off at noon photosystem II is saturated (max. photosynthesis) in 10^-12 seconds--not several hours. Photosynthesis becomes light saturated due to light intensity and is essentially instantaneous (1 picosecond) so has nothing to do with photoperiod (unless you're looking at periods of time less than 1 picosecond).

And just to be clear, I don't want to seem as though I am being harsh towards anyone--my intent is merely to correct pervasive misinformation. I'm trying to stop that dead in its tracks :D

Chris
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10951707#post10951707 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by MCsaxmaster

I'm not sure where all of this came from (perhaps someone misunderstanding Eric or something else they read and passing along the info???) but you guys have been grossly misinformed.

Calcification in corals is ALWAYS taking place and is SUBSTANTIALLY faster in the light (when there is photosynthesis) than in the dark in most corals. In fact, on average most corals calcify 2 - 3x as fast in the light as they do in the dark, and for some the difference is much larger.

looks like you were the one grossly misinformed. CaCO3 is taken in during photosynthesis, it's deposited as skeletal growth once photosynthesis stops.
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10952124#post10952124 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by JetCat USA
looks like you were the one grossly misinformed. CaCO3 is taken in during photosynthesis, it's deposited as skeletal growth once photosynthesis stops.

Uh, no....

Read Furla et al., 2000 linked above and then tell me what you think ;)

Also, my master's thesis is looking at mechanisms involved in coral calcification (possible consequences of ocean acidification). Trust me, I know a thing or two about coral calcification :D
 
i thought i knew allot about aircraft avionics and turbine engines when i was getting my degree in it too till i got out in the real world, but hey believe what you want, I've read the material on it by Borneman 2004ish and we'll just leave it at that.
 
Please provide this information then.

Do a quick search on "light enhanced calcification" and you'll should find a lot of information.

That photosynthesis enhances calcification has been known for a long time. Also, the ultrastructure of coral skeletons and patterns of calcification were described as early as the 80's. At night corals are doing relatively less calcification but tend to produce a lot of centers of calcification and lay down a lot of organic matrix. During the day they do this too, but they also fill in the spaces between what they produced the previous night, hence more calcification.

Also, I certainly don't think myself all that impressive, and there is a heck of a lot I need to learn about a lot of things, but this is a question of the very basic physiology of calcification. I don't know everything, but I do know this ;)

Chris
 
:D Thanks for clearing those up Chris. I've been hearing both those for many years now and I've always wonderred if it was true or not.
 
:thumbsup:

Yeah, at least one former member of this board I can think of really pushed this misinformation (along with many other sorts of misinformation). Unfortunately this person was well enough informed as to seem as though they knew very well what they were talking about (so folks took the information as gospel). Some of the information that person gave was accurate, but intermingled was all kinds of absolutely ridiculous nonsense. Of course, unless you know a lot about coral physiology/reef ecology you would have no way of sorting the truth from the fiction ;)

Hopefully I can insert some truth :D

cj
 
Good question. I'd say we don't have enough information to know what the ideal is. In nature the only photoperiod available is the natural one. In captivity, as per Meibom et al., 2006 we see that by increasing the photoperiod we can increase calcification. The longest photoperiod they used was 20 hrs, but they only kept the corals in abnormal photoperiods for a few days. It's possible that a very long photoperiod could end up having indirect effects down the road that lead to problems with a very long photoperiod. For instance, calcification is an energetically expensive activity. It also requires the production of organic matrix which is rich in nitrogen/amino acids. If have a very long photoperiod and encourage more calcification, could we rob other systems (e.g., tissue growth and repair) of necessry nutrients and end up having issues over the long term??? There are too many unknowns to say what the ideal is.

I'd use 12:12 as a baseline. One could increase photoperiod by an hour a day and observe the corals for a couple of weeks with the longer photoperiod (13:11). If everything is looking good, maybe increase by another hour and so on. If the corals start to look 'off' I'd back off a bit.

Chris
 
MCsaxmaster. I read through some of the articles posted recently regarding light cycles. You are correct about light having a positive effect on calcium absorbtion. The study I read suggested a 4X increase roughly. Learn something new everyday. Thanks!

This is why we all come here to post. Somewhere there is someone who has spent the time and energy to seriously study all these experimental methods we are practicing. Without your insight, I would have no lead for finding the actual research regarding coral calcification and would be reliant upon the experience of other reefers who I can regard as dependable sources of information.

About the saturation of light on corals, I think we are talking about different things. What I am refering to is the end result of several hours of photosynthetic activity.

As I understand it, while a coral is exposed to light, its zooxanthela is conducting photosynthesis. The zooxanthela essentially (and this will be a gross simplification I am sure) utilizes Carbon Dioxide and metabolizes it into simple sugars and other products that are then utilized by the coral as a source of energy (and catalyst for calcium absorbtion). A waste product produced by the photosynthesis is Oxygen. If the Oxygen is allowed to build up for extended periods of time, it has an oxidising effect on the coral and can injure the coral. The corals response to the damage being done by the oxidization is to expell some of its zooxanthela. This is often observed and reffered to as light shock. The saturation point I refer to is the point where satisfactory results of photosynthesis have occured to keep a coral alive and healthy, but before any quantities of oxidizing agents have a chance to begin accumulating.

I am under the impression this saturation point can occur within 5 or six hours of light exposure of a constant nature. My concept behind the dual light cycle is to disregard the natural light cycle and go for two shortened light cycles at very high intensity. (dual 250W halides). As opposed to a 10-12 hour light cycle with the dual 250W halides. By reducing the exposure time to six hour incriments, I should be able to avoid light shocking my corals and I should be able to trick their metabolisms into an accelerated growth cycle.

I believe their response to light is almost mechanical so by giving them sufficient light for a day then providing them a dark period to resituate themselves, They should show accelerated growth by introducing a second light cycle. Any growth they would experience would be limited to the amount of time they are in the light or dark cycles.

I fully relize this is likely dodgy science at best, but I honestly think there is something to it. I think 12 hour light/dark cycles are a function of the size of our PLANET and are not the best light/dark cycles for our corals.
 
Check out this article:

http://jeb.biologists.org/cgi/content/full/209/17/3413

"As for calcification rates, in our experiments, the photosynthetic rate remained constant throughout the day when a constant light intensity was applied "

"Whereas the rate of calcification remains stable under constant light intensity, our results confirm that there is a sharp difference between the day and the night calcification rates with a ratio of about 2.6. Consequently, we checked whether this difference persisted when the corals were submitted to longer periods of light or dark, i.e. if this difference was due to an endogenous circadian rhythm or just relied on light regime. We thus performed free-running experiments, under prolonged periods of dark or light conditions. After 16 and 20 h in the dark or in the light, the calcification rates were the same as during the 12 h period of night or light. These results confirm that the LEC phenomenon is only due to a light-tempered parameter and not to an endogenous circadian rhythm. "

And regarding dark-to-light and light-to-dark transitions:

"Under constant conditions of culture and experiment, we have underlined the existence of a lag-phase, which is similar for both transitions. The time necessary to switch from one calcification rate to the other is about 25-30 min. Once stabilized, the rate of calcification remains stable for at least 12 h, under constant conditions."
 
Based on a rough estimate of being a 2.6 difference in calcification rate between night and day....if I change my lighting from 8 hrs to 9 hrs (increase by 1 hour) then I could potentially increase my daily calcification rate by 4.35% (assuming my math is correct). Increase it to 10 hrs and and it jumps to an 8.7% improvement.

This is of course purely hypothetical... :)

Here's a little chart I threw together:

calcificationRates.jpg


Calculated from:

H = 24 hours in a day
T = number of initial lighting hours
X = number of additional lighting hours
R = 2.6 difference between day/night calcification rates

delta % = (((H-(T+X)+((T+X)*R))-((H-T)+(T*R)))/((H-T)+(T*R))) * 100
 
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