My 400G Through-wall "deceptively deep" tank

[Spaced Cowboy]

My tale begins with tides of woe. The gorgeous hardwood floor underneath the existing tank has warped, and the subfloor is damaged too. This was a result of a small leak that (over a few years) just pushed too much water down into the floor, and it's now expanded up to make a significant bump in the floor - large enough to trip over, in fact.

So, the obvious thing to do is get a bigger fish tank, right ? And this time "do it properly". That means new floors (duh!), a self-contained fish-room, and an in-wall tank rather than a tank-on-a-stand.

There is a problem: There's no space for such a thing because the french-doors that exit out into the back garden are in the way. With some trepidation, I suggest to my darling lovely wonderful amazing wife (who's still thinking about her floors) that we might want to ditch the doors, put up a wall that shrinks the living room, and generally let me have everything I want. Somewhat surprisingly, this went down well...

The upshot is that we'll be going from a room that looks (vaguely) like:

to something like:

The eagle-eyed amongst you, dear readers, will have noticed that there's something pretty odd about this tank; it sticks out of the wall... The reasoning behind this is twofold

• I think it looks pretty cool
• It maximises the space behind the wall. I still "only" have 64" of space back-to-front behind the new wall, giving me a clearance of 22" behind the plumbing behind the tank at a worst-case

So, onto the tank. It's going to be built by Miracles (who are also doing the sump and stand). It will have a cantilevered stand extending 6" beyond the stand "footprint", and since it's going to be right up against the drywall, that means it'll stick out about 5.25".

The tank dimensions are a bit weird, because the visible part is not the same as the height - the image below shows what I mean. To keep the water-level always above the part that sticks out, there's another 8" of behind-the-wall tank height. Overall it's like an 84 long by 36 wide by 24 tall tank with an 84-long by 30 wide by 8 tall mezzanine tank on top of it. Added on to the back is a coast-to-coast overflow, in which I'll be running a Bean-Animal return.

And here's a few shots of the planned plumbing of the tank, first the front:

then the back:

I'm planning on using 2 of the FlowwolF flow diverters, one on each side of the tank, each powered by a Reeflo Dart Gold pump on their own closed-loop. The closed-loop intake will be via the right-angle brackets at the top of each side of the tank (pretty much hidden out of sight because it'll be above where the 24" viewable display is). Between the elbows I plan to place a rigid mesh pipe which should eliminate any problems with critters being sucked into the CL intake. The outlets for each CL are distributed along the base of the tank, with the FlowwolF getting to decide which return pipes are active at any moment.

The main return is planned to use another Reeflo Dart Gold, but I'll be plumbing 2 of them in, with ball-valves to isolate them from the water circuit; as well as for cleaning, this means I can switch in a replacement for any pump failure by turning a few valves on or off. The return powers a manifold along the left-hand-side route to the tank, and a UV filter along the right-hand side route. With ball-valves in place, I can divert all returned water through the UV and dial down the flow if necessary to help (I realize it's not an absolute cure, but it'll probably *help*) contain any outbreak of disease. During normal use, the UV will polish the water.

Not shown in the diagram, I'm planning on using the furniture-grade schedule-40 pipe that has become available to color-code the various water circuits (drain, return, cl-left, cl-right, etc.) - I sometimes have to trouble-shoot remotely, and the easier I can make this on myself, the better

I've also made the stand extend out the sides a bit, to provide a shelf onto which I'm going to place a shadowbox to give the illusion of depth out towards the sides, and similarly on the back of the tank.... except that I might go whole-hog on the back of the tank and get two outdoor-spec TV's that I can drive with OpenGL from a mac-mini or some such. I can create a virtual landscape on the computer that complements the rocks I have in the display tank, and put some kelp waving in the distance etc. etc. The only limits here are imagination. Of course there'll also be a Cthulu-rising mode...

The overall effect ought to be to give far more depth to the tank than would normally be apparent. The cost is that I'll be keeping the glass pretty darn clean.

I should also mention that all this is still 6 months away from breaking ground (or, walls). We're in the middle of an existing bathroom renovation which will take until Xmas, and I want my taxes all paid for before embarking on another spending spree ... Also, I have to set up a holding tank in the shed, have it cycle, and get everything transferred over there, clean all the existing rocks, etc. etc. There's a lot to do *before* the tank starts to go in...

Just thought I'd put a stake in the ground to start off with

Simon

 

[Spaced Cowboy]

Open questions

Open questions

With all that said, I have a couple of open questions:

1) I'm speccing my coast-to-coast overflow to be 6" wide and 7" deep. Most people seem to have them 10" deep, but I'm not sure why. The plumbing seems to fit fairly well into a 7" deep well, and the less the water "falls" over the weir, the quieter it is, right ?

2) I'm leaning towards putting unions all along the "spraybar" return manifold. I'm not sure why, but it seems like the right thing to do [grin]. I guess it means I'd be able to clean/replace them easier, but is this really a concern ? I tend to be generous with unions, so maybe that's all it is.

Comments welcome

Simon

 

[inktomi]

I love the plumbing drawings! What did you use to make them?

How are you going to clean the "upper inside" of the front?

 

[Spaced Cowboy]

I love the plumbing drawings! What did you use to make them?

Just Sketchup - free download at sketchup.com - it really is necessary to get the 'rotate component 90 degrees about one of its axis' extension though. That makes life a lot easier, because the built-in rotate tool is a bit tricky to get the hang of. There's a fair number of freebie components that you can download directly into the app including a whole bunch of schedule-40/80 stuff.

I do plan on posting a link to the .skp file eventually. It might not be the best sketchup design (I was learning a lot when I started using it )

The main reason for doing all that was to make sure it would fit. Getting the FlowwolF piping set up was pretty tight. There's not much margin for error down there, so I'll be buying plenty of spare parts

How are you going to clean the "upper inside" of the front?

I figure an angled "\/" shape handle with a pad/scraper at one end and my arm at the other will work pretty well. I'll try and find one, but if not, I've got a 3D printer

It's going to have to be kept fairly clean because there'll be some slim home-brew LED lights along the top of the glass, to get rid of any shadowing from the fact that most of the lighting will be behind the wall, but 6" of tank will be in front of it.

Cheers
Simon

 

[dave.m]

Will there be some sort of access to the tank from the front? Else, how will you reach the front bottom for arranging and maintenance? At 36" wide by 24" tall that's a heck of a reach from the back of the tank.

Dave.M

 

[Spaced Cowboy]

Will there be some sort of access to the tank from the front? Else, how will you reach the front bottom for arranging and maintenance? At 36" wide by 24" tall that's a heck of a reach from the back of the tank.

Dave.M

My plan is to have a gantry at the back of the tank that folds down from the wall behind the tank. This gantry will be of a height that makes my waist be a bit above the back of the tank. I will also place a handrail along the wall that the tank goes through. That way, standing on the gantry, I ought to be able to lean over, brace myself with one arm, and put the other arm vertically downwards to reach stuff.

The inside measurement of my shoulder to my thumb (so I can grab things) is 29" - I'm 6'4". That's still going to be tight because the actual water height is going to be more like 30", and things right at the front of the display will be slightly farther away because of the angle to get to them under the "lip". On the plus side, there'll be a couple of inches of sand, I don't plan on stocking things right up against the front of the glass, and I can always swivel my upper body sideways to get a longer reach.

Your overall point is well taken though, it's going to be one of those tanks where you wear a tight t-shirt or no top when cleaning / maintaining. I'm definitely going to get wet arms glad the temperature will be high-70's

The gantry will fold down so that I still have access to the ground-level for the sump and, in general, not to waste space.

Cheers
Simon

 

[sandyland]

Looks like an awesome concept. Cool that the spray bar will be invisible from the exterior of the tank.
My tank is also in a position that makes it hard to clean but I just consider it a a labor of love and a constant reminder of my unwillingness to compromise.

 

[Spaced Cowboy]

Looks like an awesome concept. Cool that the spray bar will be invisible from the exterior of the tank.
My tank is also in a position that makes it hard to clean but I just consider it a a labor of love and a constant reminder of my unwillingness to compromise.

Yeah, one of the goals is going to be to hide anything and everything that's man-made out of sight - I think it'd distract from the 'peek into the ocean' view that I'm aiming for. I'm willing to put up with a lot of hassle to get that

I'm also thinking that it'll be cool to see fish swim up towards the surface (and hence out of sight) and then come back down again. It'll be another subtle visual indication that the tank is bigger than it really is.

I even considered having space behind the wall off towards the sides, but that would have meant compromising on the display-width since I can't really go much farther out. The room width is 127", subtract 84 for the tank, then 8" or so for each side's plumbing and shadowbox, and you're down to 27". Divide that by 2 because we'll be centering the tank, and you've got maybe a foot or so space for side-access.

Oh, and it would have been a lot more expensive too

Cheers
Simon

 

[muttley000]

That tank shape on the front panel is ingenious! Great that the water line and spray bar will be hidden. I will steal that at some point in the future!

 

[Spaced Cowboy]

That tank shape on the front panel is ingenious! Great that the water line and spray bar will be hidden. I will steal that at some point in the future!

Thanks And you're welcome to the idea, of course - TBH it's not that much of a stretch from just having a taller tank and hiding some of it behind the wall (which, actually, is where I started from )

I've actually just realised that the tank is going to be 42" wide by 32" high, and I've only got 32" doors (!) It's just as well that the sliding doors are going to be removed (they're 52" wide) and a new door/wall combo put in. I'll have to get the builders to help me get the tank into the house while the door is being installed, because it's the only way that tank is getting inside!

No real problem, but it makes the logistics a little more complex, because I'll want the sliding doors demolished and the new wall/door installed on the same day, so the tank is going to have to be ready-to-go at that point.

Cheers
Simon

 

[sandyland]

Why don't you just put an addition on the house? Seems tome like that would solve all the issues.. LOL

 

[Spaced Cowboy]

Why don't you just put an addition on the house? Seems tome like that would solve all the issues.. LOL

I would if I could...

The wall behind the fish tank is an exterior wall, and the only space behind that is already dedicated to driveway (to get to the garage, which is positioned behind the house). I can't take any space out of that or I wouldn't be able to drive the car behind...

As for other places, I did consider adding onto the front of the house (can't build any more in the back yard because city codes say I have to have x% of non-built-on land, and I'm almost there). Problem there is that I have a (fantastic) avocado tree which I really want to keep, and it would have to go. It'd also be a bit of a logistic nightmare - I want the tank somewhere we use regularly, not off to the bedroom-side of the house where it wouldn't get the attention it will deserve.

At some stage I will go up, and then we might get more space to play with That's not for a few years yet though, 'cos the last estimate I got was ~$250k when you factor in fixtures, fittings, furniture etc. Unfortunately I have to finish the current reno (2 bathrooms) and do the kitchen before my wife's going to consider doing upstairs.... Where's her priorities [grin]

Cheers,
Simon

 

[Spaced Cowboy]

So, I've placed the order with Miracles and paid the 50% deposit for an 84 long x 36 wide x 32 high (total, 24 viewable) tank (total is ~400G) with starfire front and sides and an external C2C overflow on the back, predrilled for a bean-animal return. Things are actually starting to move (oh-so-slowly, but surely).

Still not wanting to take delivery of the tank until April, but it's nice to see the gears starting to turn

I figured it was better for one manufacturer to do the whole shebang (tank, stand, sump) - that way they can make sure it all fits together , and they've said that although they don't normally do a water-test, they will do one before it leaves them. Freight is going to be ~$2k so I really want to makes sure it's all ok before it gets here

In terms of current renovations, we're about halfway through - we've torn down and replaced one bathroom and the second has started (and we found the previous builders had cut through load-bearing ceiling joists... WHY would someone do that? Sure it's stood for the 8 years since I bought the house, but seriously, there was no need... [rant over]). This all ought to be out of the way by Xmas, and then I've got a few months to set up the in-between tank in the shed, transfer everything over, clean the rocks etc.

Giving myself plenty of time for this because my son's birthday is in the middle, and my wife tends to do a lot of planning so I'll get less time than you might expect...

The current plan is for the tank to be on-site when the builders start to replace the sliding glass doors with a normal door (so I can have a larger fish-room), which means I'll be able to get the tank through that hole in the wall - it won't fit through any of the current doors in the house unless we turn it sideways... Similarly, the tank will have to be in-situ while they frame up and build the wall for the fish-room because there's no way to get the tank in or out once the wall is up. They're just going to have to be very careful

Cheers
Simon

 

[Spaced Cowboy]

So after some to-ing and fro-ing on the Bean Animal thread over in the DIY section, and after lots of good advice from 'Uncle of 6', I changed around the return design to be more in line with the original design ideals...

Advantages of the newer design are:

• There's far less overhang of the return pipes - previously they came out the back of overflow. This configuration makes it far less likely I'll knock one and break the return system.
• It still leaves me the 4" I need to put the outdoor TVs behind the back panel, by extending out the rear shelf by a few inches
• All the returns are the same length, by intelligent positioning of the emergency drain. This doesn't need an elbow, so by using a symmetric layout we can make sure they all match in length
• There are no horizontal runs of pipe any more. One of the issues with a drain system is that it's a gravity feed system, and without any drop in elevation, there ain't no gravitational effects to speak of Then, you're depending on inertia, and that has caused some folks problems

So overall I'm happier with this layout - it preserves my design criteria of allowing for the 'deeper than it really is' visual effect, and makes for a more reliable and better-designed drain. The only drawback was that I had to lose an inch of space in the skimmer section of the sump. It's still 15" by 20" so it ought to be ok.

Simon.

 

[Spaced Cowboy]

I had been talking with Lucas at Derkroon Mechanics about getting two of their FlowwolF diverters for the tank, but back in November he emailed me to let me know that they were about to release a new product (the FWX) and inquired if I wanted to upgrade to that instead, with the proviso that I shouldn't publicly talk about anything ahead of their announcement.

We went back and forward a few times, questions and answers, and I decided to go with two of the FWX diverters - much nicer networking and even better build materials than the FlowwolF's that had originally attracted me to them!

So, now that I'm (a) back from Costa Rica, and (b) they've got it up on their page, I can mention that this is the plan - each of the closed loops returns will be via an FWX, each will have its own Reeflo Dart Gold pushing water, and there's another 2 (one active at a time) Reeflo Dart Gold pushing water via the main return lines.

I ought to have enough flow, and it ought to be turbulent enough. If all that isn't sufficient, there's always the existing Tunze powerbeads that I have. The plan is to forgo any visible pumps in the tank, though

Simon

 

[muttley000]

Hopefully Lucas has his issues worked out. I have been following a couple threads and know he has been plagued with problems, but he has a good idea it seems.

 

[sandyland]

Looks like a cool product. I was thinking of going with a flow wolf for my tank but I got scared. Some of my plumbing is built into the walls and I was thinking that if this ever broke or if they were to go out of business it might be hard to adapt all those pipes into something usable. I just went with a spray bar down the length of the tank on both sides and two sea swirls on opposite ends of the tank. Also running two darts. I'm hoping the sea swirls will break up the current enough to seam random.

 

[Spaced Cowboy]

And so we're back

It's been many a long month of renovation in the rest of the house, and frankly I'd prefer some "down-time" before starting another round, but the tank is ordered, delivery is in May, and time is a-pressing...

So, met with the structural engineer on Monday, he's going to make me the necessary structural diagrams for the permits (we're punching a hole in the exterior wall for the access door, and that means permits). We'll pull those soon (hopefully next week some time) and I've booked in the contractor for June 29->July 14th or so.

In the meantime, things have simplified on the plumbing front...

The FlowWolf FWX flow-diverters didn't arrive, and although I'm sure they would have, eventually, I just couldn't wait any longer, so an "executive decision" was made [grin], and they were canned. This makes the under-the-tank plumbing a lot more accessible, as a side-benefit, but it does leave me with an issue for flow...

Recall that I'm planning on wrapping the sides and rear with either shadow-boxes or TV screens, and that the whole goal is to give the impression of looking out into the ocean - I don't want to spoil the illusion by having a powerhead (even a low-profile one) in view.

The solution seems to be the Maxspect gyre. I have the non-viewable 8" of space at the top of the tank to hide the gyre(s) and they apparently produce a lot of flow. I'll probably get 2 of them, one at each end. I think that'll provide enough flow for a 7' tank. If I mount one upside-down compared to the other, they both ought to work in concert for a single water "circuit".

I just wish there was more information available on things like the "advanced controller", and some way of purchasing better magnets. They say 3/4" glass will need the improved magnets, but no-one seems to be selling them... It seems odd to produce a "high flow" device without supporting the sort of tanks that need it...

So, now I'm waiting on the structural engineer... We'll see how that goes.

Simon

 

[AirForceAquariu]

I am a huge fan of tanks designed like yours. Although I am far from my own dream tank build (I'm sure many people on this forum "have underwear older than me") I like to try and follow as many as I can to keep up with the ideas as well as refine my dream. Best of luck!

 

[dave.m]

If you can't get you hands on the FlowWolf why not consider the original wavemaker that the FlowWolf was created to compete with, the OceansMotions device?

Dave.M