My 400G Through-wall "deceptively deep" tank

[Spaced Cowboy]

Simon, I was thinking of scaffolding without the wheels and make it a perm structure. Or you have to design a platform with steps, I would think.

Unfortunately, behind the tank I only have 28" of space. Bare minimum (for safety) would be an 18" platform, and I'd be happier with 24". I need to be able to use the wall on the far side of the platform (it's going to be my quarantine tanks, and there'll be a small laundry sink there as well), so I need to be able to get to it without there being a barrier in the way.

Ideally I'd like to run a mangrove raceway on the rear wall as well (say 50-80 mangrove plants, in 4 rows, spread over 72" per row). They take both nitrates and phosphates from the water column, and they're reasonably efficient. I'd run the grow-bulb on a reverse cycle to the tank, and trim them as needed. There are apparently mangrove plants that deposit the salt they ingest into their oldest leaves, rather than onto all the leaves, so you don't have to mist them every couple of days...

Of course, this'd reduce the space for a platform even further, although I think I can squeeze 4 rows in, above the 36"-from-the-ground of where the lift platform would be maxing out. That's 14" per plant before the next row, which is just about do-able.

I did think about having a /----\ arrangement, where there are stairs on both sides, but then it's hard to get to the sump (under the tank). In general, the platform has to be removable, and ideally easily so. Having a rocker switch with 'up' and 'down' is as easy as it gets [grin]

I'm looking forward to seeing your tank come together.

Me too. I vacillate between "wow, it's all coming together just as I planned", and "Oh my $deity, what if I've forgotten something crucial"...

 

[Spaced Cowboy]

Progress...

Progress...

So today I got quite a bit of prep done.

1) I now have a holding tank beginning its cycle in the shed, in preparation for the current occupants of the tank in 8 weeks time. It's currently got salt water in it, and the pump/overflow are working fine, no leaks as yet It's got a chiller (CA spring is hot, and the shed has no a/c and heaters linked up to a Neptune Apex controller, and it's got all the plumbing (bar two connections I've ordered from BRS) for a LiterMeter III-based water-change system.

2) Regarding that water-changing... I've never been fantastically happy with my NFW (top-off) and NSW (water-change) sources. The restrictions of my house dictate that the tank is at one end of the house, and the water tanks are a good 70' away at the other end of the house. And they're outside. Which is the only place they can be.

One thing that soon became apparent was that the RODI system was vulnerable to the sun - I was fighting algae formation in the RODI canisters themselves, and that was getting into the water that was going into the tank. I pretty much thought that the skimmer/filtration would get rid of anything before it became an issue, but it was always a niggle.

So, today I built a light-tight cabinet for the RODI system. I also un-plumbed and cleaned out the 225G NSW tank. Its' spotless now, and ready to be plumbed back in, but I'm waiting for some black krylon fusion paint (Tuesday) to arrive, and the tank is going to be black (and undercover) to reduce the algae growth (hopefully) to 0 from now on.

It all starts with good water, right ?

Simon.

 

[dave.m]

So you need one support beam along the back of the display tank on the left, either supported on the back of the tank stand or added separately. The top counter surface of your stand for the support tanks on the opposite wall becomes the right hand support. You build a 24" (?) wide platform the length of the display tank that you can mount between the left (display tank) beam and right (counter top) supports to stand on. The platform can be put up and taken down as needed.

If you want to get really creative you can hinge this platform in the middle such that it folds up onto another hinge on the wall at the far end of the display tank to keep it up out of the way.

Dave.M

 

[Spaced Cowboy]

So you need one support beam along the back of the display tank on the left, either supported on the back of the tank stand or added separately. The top counter surface of your stand for the support tanks on the opposite wall becomes the right hand support. You build a 24" (?) wide platform the length of the display tank that you can mount between the left (display tank) beam and right (counter top) supports to stand on. The platform can be put up and taken down as needed.

If you want to get really creative you can hinge this platform in the middle such that it folds up onto another hinge on the wall at the far end of the display tank to keep it up out of the way.

Dave.M

I guess I didn't think of one that was *not* hinged and folded up against the wall. That's a viable alternative. I'll call that "Plan B" - thanks

As I mention above, I wanted to use the space on the wall above the tank for a mangrove raceway, so I don't want to lose that space. Every inch is precious

But one that I could slot into place, hopefully lock into a mechanism to stop it from sliding, and that I could just lift off (made from 80/20 perhaps would work... Hmmm...

Cheers
Simon

 

[Spaced Cowboy]

Laying foundations...

Laying foundations...

So, not a lot of postings recently - I was laid low by a particularly nasty variant of the flu - didn't get out of bed for 6 days Still, all better now

In terms of things being done:

1) The RODI system has been enclosed in a light-proof box to prevent sunlight causing algae issues in the purification system itself. I've also attached a screen to the front of the framework that should help block light even more. It's not obvious from the photo, but the front of the box actually detaches (it's hung at the top) for maintenance etc.

2) I've painted the NSW storage tank (225G) black. First I bought the Krylon Fusion spray paint and applied that, but I wasn't too happy with the results, it was spotty and the paint ran as I was spraying it. To finish things off, I used the external black paint that I've used on the woodwork around the house, and it seems to work pretty well...

There really isn't much light getting inside it now at all, and it's going to be under another cover anyway, just to minimise the sunlight effect as much as possible.

3) I need the holding tank set up in the shed, where all the current critters are going to be housed while I break down the old tank and set up the new. Since work will start in ~6 weeks, I'm on a bit of a schedule to get the tank cycled. To start the ball rolling, I wired up another water-circuit from the storage tanks to the shed (rather than to the house)... You can just about see the red (NSW), blue (NFW) and black (waste from water change) lines running down towards the water-tanks

These are all controlled via a litre-meter pump that handles the water-changes as well as the auto top-off of NFW.

4) Finally, I've got the holding tank up and running in the shed. The water is a bit cloudy atm because I just added the salt, but it'll clear There's an Apex controller handling the pH and temp readings, as well as the heater power, and there's also an inline cooler (the shed has no a/c), again handled by the Apex. The stand is built from 80/20 and is perfectly level

The holding tank is an old 50G tank I had lying around, coupled with an over-the-top overflow (using an aqua-lifter pump to maintain the over/under water level). The skimmer is an old AquaC I had lying around, and there's a canister filter for extra water polishing. You can just see the litre-meter pump at the back.

So, everything proceeding to plan - just got to wait for the tank to cycle now and I can start the move

Simon

 

[Spaced Cowboy]

Coding it up

Coding it up

So it seems I ought to read the building code more. A lot more. I've been more or less living in city hall recently, I'm on first-name terms with the building inspectors, all because I didn't do my homework.

First, my contractor tells me that due to California building codes (2013) I need a 3'x3' landing outside the exterior door that I want to create on the right hand side of the house. When I pointed out that other doors didn't seem to need that, he told me the CA building code had changed (which, to be fair, it has).

This is a problem because there's about 10' of space on that side of the house and it's all driveway to provide vehicle access to the detached garage at the rear of the house. If I put in a 3'x3' slab for the landing, I won't be able to drive the car up the path; I did think of making the whole driveway get "speed bumps" which would serve as the landings but the wife-unit didn't approve.

So, trip to city hall. Talk to the inspectors and find out that the fish room doesn't need an "egress door" because it's not a sleeping area. Therefore it can be counted as an "external door", which has lower requirements. Specifically I can put in a step that can be 11" proud of the wall rather than 3' [you know, like the ones I already have that I'd told the contractor about]... Having been told that I was pretty happy and left, so ....

... I didn't see that an external door isn't allowed to swing outwards over a step, it has to swing inwards. This is an issue because I specced a 28" door, and I only have 25" of room to open the door if it swings in. I didn't consider this because I always intended it to swing outwards.

Now the external doors to the house are all custom knotty-alder stained doors, so the door was ordered 2 weeks ago (it has a lead time of 8 weeks) in order for it to be here on time for the building work to progress. At this point, I think I'm just going to live with it. It may even be useful to have the larger door for taking stuff in and out. In any event, that's not the major problem...

... because (again!) I neglected to think it through. Even putting a single step in for the new door means the gate won't be able to fully open. It's a sprung gate so it needs to be able to be fully open to attach to the wall, to prevent it from closing immediately (we have a swimming pool, so there are code requirements on the gate).

... so I was back again to the city this morning ("Hi Bill"), and got another alteration granted to move the door to the opposite end of the fish-room. Now I think we're good to go. I think (I hope!) I'm better at planning the tank, plumbing, etc. than understanding all the minutiae of the CA building code (2013)! The room is now planned to look like:

... where the 32" gap is space for a 28" door + framework.

In all of this, I have to say the city people were friendly and had a "how can we work this out for you" attitude rather than the "more than my job's worth to help you mate" that I'd feared. 10/10 city of San Jose. Would do more building work with you again.

Simon.

 

[Spaced Cowboy]

Humidity

Humidity

One of the things I've not had to worry about before is humidity - with the tanks up until now being in th (large) living-room, there's not been any issue, at least as far as I can tell.

Now, though, there's going to be a lot of water in a fairly small room (10'7" by 5'8"). I already have a ceiling-mounted bathroom-style dehumidifier that I can install, but I'm not convinced about their utility. I already have some of those in the house, and to be honest we just switch them on and off manually, I don't trust their built-in automatic systems to do the job.

What I want is a system that can monitor the humidity, and switch the fan on/off depending on humidity level. I was looking at this humidistat. I expect the electrician can link the ceiling humidifier up to the humidistat output socket (maybe via a junction box ?)

Any thoughts, or how do people already manage this sort of thing ?

Cheers
Simon

 

[dave.m]

I think you are moving in the right direction looking at products for a greenhouse. Make sure your electrician vets it for you first so you don't order the wrong thing.

Dave.M

 

[sandyland]

You can make a temporary landing out of some scrap wood to get you through the inspection process. It doesn't have to pass a beauty inspection it, just has to function up to code until you can see the building inspectors tail lights. Then remove it and do what you like. I am a custom home builder and we have to do things like this all the time.

 

[saf1]

You can make a temporary landing out of some scrap wood to get you through the inspection process. It doesn't have to pass a beauty inspection it, just has to function up to code until you can see the building inspectors tail lights. Then remove it and do what you like. I am a custom home builder and we have to do things like this all the time.

True, until you try and sell the home. Or better yet answer to the insurance company who is trying to cover your fire damage claim and you now have to eat the cost....but that isn't for this thread.

 

[Spaced Cowboy]

Well, it doesn't matter to me which end the door is from the perspective of the fish-room, so I'm fine with moving the door (now that it's signed off). Hopefully that's the last wrinkle in the plans...

 

[nuxx]

One of the things I've not had to worry about before is humidity - with the tanks up until now being in th (large) living-room, there's not been any issue, at least as far as I can tell.

Now, though, there's going to be a lot of water in a fairly small room (10'7" by 5'8"). I already have a ceiling-mounted bathroom-style dehumidifier that I can install, but I'm not convinced about their utility. I already have some of those in the house, and to be honest we just switch them on and off manually, I don't trust their built-in automatic systems to do the job.

What I want is a system that can monitor the humidity, and switch the fan on/off depending on humidity level. I was looking at this humidistat. I expect the electrician can link the ceiling humidifier up to the humidistat output socket (maybe via a junction box ?)

Any thoughts, or how do people already manage this sort of thing ?

Cheers
Simon

Always thought humidity was a non-issue... until our first winter.

Started seeing pools at the base of all our windows, then a bit of mold.

Ran out and bought two dehumidifiers and those cleared up all the humidity issues in the house. Pretty annoying to run them all the time, but with summer coming up, I'm just going to set them to run if humidity gets over a certain level.

 

[Spaced Cowboy]

Skimmer delimmer

Skimmer delimmer

So, I'm going to get a Bubble King Supermarin skimmer for the new tank, but I'm dithering over which (either the '200 or the '250).

The water load will be ~450 gallons by the time you include the sump, which falls naturally into the '200 skimmer "gallonage" of (200 - 530g). However, I've never found that skimmer manufacturers are entirely accurate with their ratings. I have no experience with Royal Exclusiv so I don't know if it's the case here...

The '250 is rated for 260-790 gallons. I've never found that going for the over-rated skimmer is a bad idea, and it's "only" another $150 or so. I'm tempted to go for the '250, but do I need to ?

Cheers
Simon

 

[Spaced Cowboy]

Water circuit

Water circuit

So here's how I'm envisioning the water circuit in and around the tank to look like:

It starts off with the main tank draining to the sump via the BA overflow, and water being pumped back up from the sump to the display tank.

The next part involves the water-change system, which will periodically take a gallon of water from the main tank and deposit it into Q1 - the first quarantine tank - while putting a gallon of NSW into the display sump. Water then flows through all the Qx tanks eventually reaching the quarantine sump, which pumps it back up to Q1.

Optionally (assuming I'm trying to match salinity for example), I'll be able to divert any water designated for Q1 into Q4 (Q4-Q9 will always be at the same salinity as the main tank, whereas Q1,2,3 will be matched to whatever the incoming salinity is, and slowly changed over time into the same salinity as Q4..9. I'll use a liter-meter to do that simply by slowly removing the existing water and replacing either with NFW (to lower salinity) or NSW (to raise salinity).

I think this does a few things for me:

• Gives me an isolated system to quarantine things in
• Makes it easy to move from quarantine to display (since its using the same water)
• Makes it easy to gradually change the salinity of the incoming water the fish comes in to that of the display tank
• Provides a constant source of good water for the quarantine tanks.
• Should one system fail, the other provides a backup while we're getting the failed one up to speed again.

It does mean that there's a shared quarantine system (so anything in there that has it will probably spread to others) but unless you have multiple independent closed systems, that's always a risk. I don't have the space for that.

Simon.

 

[Spaced Cowboy]

New goodies

New goodies

So at the moment I'm pretty much sitting waiting for the tank in the shed to cycle properly before moving fish over and breaking down the old tank. To help with managing the cycle, I got a Seneye Reef which monitors Ammonia amongst other things. I have to soak the slide in the water for 48 hours before installing. I'll post a pic or two once it's up and running.

There's been a few large shrimp decomposing in there for about a week now, and I'm still not reading any NH3 to speak of but we'll see. I did move some rock from my display tank to the holding tank - perhaps the bacteria has already established itself. Again, we'll see. I have a few weeks yet before my hand will be forced.

I also got a new skimmer for the big tank. Since no-one chimed in on whether the '200 would be sufficient, I followed my gut feeling and went for a '250 ...

... and the humidistat arrived ...

I wanted to make sure that the humidistat would be ok for the dehumidifier, was asking the electrician a few questions, and got told[*] "Stop asking silly questions! Of course we can do that..." So, I guess it's ok

Also got a ping from Miracles that the tank is together, and a promise of pictures on Monday. They're going to do a leak-test on it for me (they don't usually do that) before shipping since I'm so far away, that ought to happen on June 8th. Hopefully shipping will be soon after and it'll be on its way down to me.

Just got to wait now. Waiting is hard.

Simon.




[*] I have a long working relationship with this guy, we get along great - each giving and getting as much as the other.

 

[Socaltoaz]

I'm getting a royal exclusiv skimmer as well and was debating between the 400 and 500. Actually ended up speaking to the owner- Klaus- and his take was that skimmer selection is based on size as well as biooload. For example a 400 gallon tank running sea horses will have a much different biooload than a 400 gallon tank with 50 predatory fish. I think you did good with the 250. My equipment arrives in a month or so.

 

[Sonicboom]

great build so far, tagging along!

 

[NeverlosT]

Very cool build so far, I cant wait to see the tank and the finished product!

Remember sound proofing in the barrier wall between the fish room and the viewing room and vapor barrier/moisture resistant materials in the fish room, and a drain if you can swing one!

 

[Spaced Cowboy]

great build so far, tagging along!

Thanks Hope you enjoy the ride as much as I am doing

Simon

 

[Spaced Cowboy]

Very cool build so far, I cant wait to see the tank and the finished product!

Thanks it's been planned for months now, and it's starting to feel as though it's finally all coming together. Exciting times

Remember sound proofing in the barrier wall between the fish room and the viewing room and vapor barrier/moisture resistant materials in the fish room, and a drain if you can swing one!

Drain - yep, there's going to be a (small) sink in the rear right corner of the fish room. I've told the plumber that I want to be able to insert tubes into piping to drain, and they're going to put a shower-like drain in the floor too. The whole floor will be lined as if it's a shower.

Vapor barrier etc. - again, going with the shower theme, it's going to be plastic, then cement board or whatever code requires for a shower, then 3 coats of gloss paint.

Sound-proofing - here I have to compromise, and in fact it's one of my main worries. The tank is going to stick through the wall, and I don't want 4" of the precious 6" of protrusion being wasted going through a standard wall's thickness... So there will only be a cement board layer between the tank and the living room.

In fact it's worse than that - the stand will form part of the support structure for the wall, if you look carefully, you can see flanges on the wall side of the stand, to attach the stand to the wall. One thing I have done is make the flanges be 2" away from the wall, and I intend to get rubber pads to go between the 2x4's that the wall will be screwed to, and the stand itself. That way there ought to be some decoupling.

What I really don't want is to turn the wall into a speaker, with a 50hz hum being amplified throughout the house. On the other hand, I really don't want to lose 4" of my precious 6" of overhang as well.

This one is definitely something I'll be keeping my eye on...

Simon.