My 500 + gallon system. Last 13 years to now. Build, Aquascaping & more. Lots of pics
- Thread starter slief
- Start date
sowildpaul
New member
I understand that you want low profile plumbing on your new pump. Hope it can be swapped easily that way you want after you get new parts.
You have to have a heater or two in the system. (You mentioned that you don't run heaters so I don't know if you already have them but you don't use them or you don't have heaters) I live in Cerritos, CA and it's damn cold like 45 degrees at night most of the times during winter.
slief
RC Sponsor
I don't have heaters as I don't need them. It was about 40 here last night in Simi Valley which is in Ventura county. You and I have similar weather but my pumps tend to act as heaters to a minor extent eliminating the need for real heaters. My goal with the pump upgrade is ultimately efficiency and if the move necessatates a heater, then that would defeat the purpose. Hopefully that won't be the case. I also have a line running around the house 18" under ground to the garage where my chiller is located. The total run is about 100'. I don't use the chiller anymore as my max temps are tolerable without it. I do keep the water flowing through the line though. That line running underground more than likely has a cooling effect on the system. If the new pump drops the temps too much for winter weather, I will shut the garage loop valve and see if that helps compensate for any further temp drops. If it does, I could always open the valve up again when it warms up ahead of summer should I need the additional cooling provided by the underground line.
As for the new pump, I will make it fit my existing plumbing. I already have it pretty much planned out and know what I need to make it fit. Nothing a trip to Lowes won't fix once I get the new imperial sized 1" and 1.5" bushings. All minor details in the grand scheme of things once I get the right fittings.
MxReEfEr92
MASVC President
slief
RC Sponsor
Video of the tank with my gopro
You beat me to it. It was great seeing you as always! Thanks for coming by with your new toy! It funny how all fish but the cowfish went into hiding for the camera. I just edited two decent clips together for a total of just over 4 minutes. Was just waiting for it to finish processing before I post the link. Oh well, it will finish on it's own. Here is a compilation of the one above and another coving the other side of the tank.
<iframe width="1280" height="720" src="//www.youtube.com/embed/so8D5eDAyIk?rel=0" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>
slief
RC Sponsor
First would be power consumption. At the end of the day my Dart Gold closed loop pump draws 170 or so watts and plays a role in my system not requiring a heater. I'd probably need a ridiculously large heater for my system or multiple heaters that consume much more power than my Dart's do. Second reason is that I don't like heaters. They fail and when they do, it's often catastrophic. Ever have a heater crack? I have and it's not pretty and can take out the entire system. I try to avoid heaters at all costs. I've never run one in this tank and I probably never will. In my case, I can manage temps with pumps and even if I needed a winter pump and a different summer pump, that would be preferable to me since I can swap any of my external pumps in about 2-3 minutes.
It was 34* outside when I woke up this morning. My apex sent me an alert that my tank hit 74.9. That is an all time low for my system as far as I can remember. I think the difference between the new Dart Super Gold return pump and the Hammerhead Gold it replaced is good for at least 2*. I can only image what this Red Dragon will do for tank temps compared to the Dart Gold closed loop that it would replace.
I went to the garage and closed the valve for the chiller loop. That runs through the wall next to my tank and underground around the house to the garage where the chiller is located and then returns through the same path back to the garage. It will be interesting to see how fast the temps come up with that valve closed so I can get a real idea of what that loop is doing as far as cooling my system. I've had that loop in place since I installed the tank in 1997 and never tested it as far as cooling ability.
I've got to believe that 100' of 1" Flex PVC buried 18" under cold ground and a big chiller with water circulating through it sitting in a cold garage is playing a substantial role in my tanks temps both in the summer and in the winter. I've got some big salt water safe high end solenoid valves I could put on that loop and control it via my Apex if I really wanted to. I have an EB4 in the garage so that would be really easy. Not sure there is any reason to do that though. I will update later today if not tomorrow once I get an idea of how that loop effects my tank.
sowildpaul
New member
Yeah, aquarium heaters can be dangerous. I am sure you have heard of a heat pump that is mostly used for a swimming pool or koi pond. It seems safer but it's costly and big as a chiller. Some of Aqua Logic HPs include a cooling mode which is a nice feature (2 in 1). Of course it consumes a lot of power. Oh well...
slief
RC Sponsor
At 7:30 this morning my tank was 74.8 with an outside temp of 34*.. I closed the valve to my chiller loop at that point. It's now 12:30 and the tank is up to 75.4 while the outside temp is 60. My house temps have remained about the same all morning. I just opened the valve to the chiller loop to see what the temp does. I'm thinking that the run to the garage and back has a substantial impact on reducing the tank temps. Especially when it's much colder outside. Once I get the RD3 plumbed in, this could prove interesting. I might just use one of those solenoids on the chiller loop if I can maintain reasonable temps with the RD3 and the chiller loop closed off. If nothing else, the solenoid could be opened via my Apex every few hours to keep the water in the chiller loop from stagnating. In the summer, I think the chiller loop also plays a role in keeping my tank a bit cooler which has been important even though I don't use the chiller itself. As such, keeping that loop in place has it advantages depending on the time of year or the ambient temps in my house as well as outside. If the RD3 drops my summer time temps enough, I may be able to eliminate that loop entirely but with summer so far off and no RD3 in place, I can only speculate.
Fortunately I have the week off so I have plenty of time to play with things and the weather forecast for the next few days is more of the same chilly weather. At least chilly by So. Cal. standards. Since tonight will be another cold one, I will close that valve before bed and see what the temps are in the AM. In the mean time, I will update this thread with some graphs later today.
Fortunately I have the week off so I have plenty of time to play with things and the weather forecast for the next few days is more of the same chilly weather. At least chilly by So. Cal. standards. Since tonight will be another cold one, I will close that valve before bed and see what the temps are in the AM. In the mean time, I will update this thread with some graphs later today.
slief
RC Sponsor
One thing is for sure. Closing the valve to the garage chiller loop makes a big difference during the winter on cold nights. I always figured that loop had a cooling effect during the summer months even without running the chiller. Now with the current pump configuration, it makes a big and concerning difference in the winter. Last night was the coldest night here of the winter. It's 34* outside and 65 inside. At midnight I closed the valve to the garage loop. The tank was 75.4 at the time. I'm guessing that the tank would have been close to 74.5 or maybe less had I left the valve open. This morning the tank was 75.8 and I left the door below the tank open for the night just to be safe as I don't want my temps jumping around too much during these experiments. Normally during the summer I leave the door below the tank open and close them during the winter because the pumps heat the space below the tank and having the door open keeps the temps down a bit during the summer. I was concerned that if I left the door below the tank closed, the temps would have risen a degree or more and I wanted to play it safe and avoid too many temp swings right now. Not that it would have mattered because the swings are really slow but since these are currently experiments, that could be another test.
So now I did another experiment which should be most interesting. Since the loop is closed and it's still in the mid 30's outside, I closed the door below the tank and shut off the dart closed loop recirc pump. This would be about the closest simulation I could do for running the RD3 pump in place of the Dart recirc pump. I wont run with that pump off for to long but I should get an idea how fast the tank temps drop within a couple hours.. I may have to repeat this test tonight to get a better idea if I will even be able to use the RD3 during the winter due to tank temps.
So now I did another experiment which should be most interesting. Since the loop is closed and it's still in the mid 30's outside, I closed the door below the tank and shut off the dart closed loop recirc pump. This would be about the closest simulation I could do for running the RD3 pump in place of the Dart recirc pump. I wont run with that pump off for to long but I should get an idea how fast the tank temps drop within a couple hours.. I may have to repeat this test tonight to get a better idea if I will even be able to use the RD3 during the winter due to tank temps.
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Nizz
New member
I am understand by closing the valve to your chiller. You are stopping water circulation to the chiller. I don't know if the outside temp would ever get below 34 degree. But is their a possibility of the lines to your chiller or the chiller itself freezing with static water movement now going through your chiller?
slief
RC Sponsor
Very good question. It's not an issue for a couple reasons. First the chiller has it's own thermostat and won't turn on until 82* which it won't see on a day like today. Second and most important is my Apex. The chiller is plugged into an Apex controlled (EB4) outlet in the garage and as a failsafe, the chillers power is off when the tanks temp is below 81*. As such, it's a non issue. I allow my tank to get up to 82* during the summer and use fans to cool it from there which is why the temps are set so high.
As a side note to this current experiment with the closed loop dart turned off, my UV filter that runs inline on the closed loop is also turned off. That's 114 watts of heat transfer that isn't present currently. As such, this current experiment will be met with slightly skewed results. The real test will include the RD3 pump in place of the Dart with the UV running. I'm thinking I might end up using that solenoid in the future on that garage loop. It could come in handy.
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Nizz
New member
Sorry I wasn't talking about the chiller turning on and freezing the lines. I was referring to the unit being outside. The outside air temps getting too low and freeze the line or the chiller. Not sure hat the lowest it gets where you are at or if the chiller is in the garage and not outside.
slief
RC Sponsor
The chiller is in the garage and it never gets cold enough to freeze the lines in there. At least it hasn't in the 18 or so years that I've owned my home and had it setup this way. Heck, we rarely get into the 30's here. Once in a blue moon we might see high 20's but with the warmer tank water running through the lines and the fact that our ground never freezes up, frozen lines aren't an issue here where I live.
When I make the move to the RD3, I will probably eliminate that loop entirely as I haven't needed the chiller in a number of years. The only reason I have kept that line in place is for it's geothermal cooling which probably helps to keep my tank cooler in the summer. I suspect I probably won't need that once I eliminate one of my Darts for the RD3 as the pumps are really the only things contributing to my warmer temps.
I turned my recirculation pump back on as it didn't seem to drop too much in the couple hours I had it off but it was also warming up outside. I will probably shut it off again tonight before I go to bed to see what happens to my tank temps overnight with only one Dart running my return. That will give me the best idea of tank temps on a cold night without the garage loop. Hopefully the temps stay above 75 with the doors closed below to tank to trap the heat from the one pump. I will set an email/text alarm to notify me if they drop below 74.7 just in case and will keep my phone close by so I can turn the pump back on should I need to.
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sowildpaul
New member
Correct me if I am wrong...pumps produce little heat (DC pumps produce very little heat or none) so I don't see how that helps warming up your tank during cold winter nights. IMO, 75 degrees is little too cold for livestock. Like I said recently, correct me if I am wrong.
As you mentioned that you don't need the chiller during summer, why didn't you get rid of it and re-plumb?
slief
RC Sponsor
Pumps do transfer heat. I've never need a heater on my big system in fact, it's always been the opposite. For many years I need a chiller largely because of my choice in pumps..Some pumps generate more heat than others. DC pumps transfer very little where as larger pumps like Iwaki's transfer much more. It all depends on the pump and the turn over. Before I swithced from a combination of Iwaki's, Little Giants and Larger pond style pumps, my chiller worked overtime. Once I switched to the Reeflo's and raised my max allowable temp, I was able to get away without a chiller and my tank maxes out at 82 during the heat of the summer. Before, it would have hit 100 mostly because of the pumps.
In my case, a pair of 4000GPH pumps are enough to keep my tank warm. 75* is still OK in my experience. It's colder than I prefer but much of our livestock comes from oceans that have a pretty large temp variance from winter to summer. Temps as low as 70 aren't uncommon on a reef during cold months just like temps as high as 85 in the warmer months. Obviously we don't want our tanks hitting 85 let alone 70 but most would frown on 82* water and in the three years that I have been allowing my tank to manage its own temps, I have yet to have an issue with 82* summer water temps. My fish are all perfectly fine.
As far as why I didn't redo my plumbing to eliminate the chiller.. I don't need to redo it. It runs off a T or manifold line on my return pump. All I need to do is close a valve and the flow is shut off without impacting the return flow or any other flow on my system. I've left the chiller there for emergency purposes. The likes of which I will never see however, I do believe that the 50' run 18" under ground to the garage and the 50' run back to the sump inside of 1" flex PVC has a geothermal cooling effect on my tank that is useful during summer months. Especially since I don't run my AC much and my tank is routinely in the 80's when it's hot out. As such, while the chiller may not be cooling my tank anymore, the run out there and back does have a cooling effect. As such, that is primary reason why I leave that loop with water running through it. This is something that will definitely have to change in the winter months though. There is a substantial difference in my tank temps now with the Superdart running my return vs last year when I had the Hammerhead Gold handling the return. The Superdart dropped my winter temps by at least 2* and I know that closing that valve makes a big difference in my water temps when it's cold. As such, I will definitely need to shut that loop down during the winter or at the very least manage it via a solenoid valve which I happen to have for that very reason.
I will probably remove the chiller completely this summer and just complete the loop without the chiller so the water still flows underground and back. This is in the event that I need the cooling effect after installing the new RD3 close loop pump in place of one of the Darts.
Lavoisier
Premium Member
Yes, a great pump in many ways.
slief
RC Sponsor
This is as good a log as any.
At 8:20PM I shut the recirc pump off. Temp was 76.8 in the tank. Garage loop has been off all day. It was 44* outside when I shut it off. Since the garage loop is closed off, that really doesn't matter. Doors below the tank are closed to trap heat from the Superdart return pump. It will be interesting to see how the temps hold overnight. Unfortunately my UV lights will remain off as long as this pump is off but if the temps hold OK without the second dart, I will feel much better about replacing it with the RD3 during the colder months.
At 8:20PM I shut the recirc pump off. Temp was 76.8 in the tank. Garage loop has been off all day. It was 44* outside when I shut it off. Since the garage loop is closed off, that really doesn't matter. Doors below the tank are closed to trap heat from the Superdart return pump. It will be interesting to see how the temps hold overnight. Unfortunately my UV lights will remain off as long as this pump is off but if the temps hold OK without the second dart, I will feel much better about replacing it with the RD3 during the colder months.
