My 65G Shallow Reef Tank

[DiscusHeckel]

My present ATI tubes need replacement at the end of next month. I ordered new ATI tubes from Germany last Friday. They should arrive next week. I ordered:

5 X ATI Blue +; 1 X ATI Aquablue Special; 1 X ATI Purple +; 1 X ATI Actinic; 3 X ATI Coral +

I am going to try Scotty's tube combination first. Having watched his reef videos on big HD screen on numerous occasions, I got convinced that I will like it. I ordered enough tubes to go back to my present combination if needed. Regardless of what I am going to have, there is likely to be an actinic tube in my combination. I am now hoping that the German retailer will send the right tubes and that tubes will arrive in one piece.

To offset part of the purchase cost, I sold a few frags today to local reefers and impressed my wife during this process. She seems to think that I have a good business prowess. I said thank you dear... Acropora yongei seems to be more popular than Acropora aspera and copiosa though.

This is for Sahin:

The "green/blue" Acropora turaki, which we we talked about a few weeks ago, is now sold as "Bottle-brush" acropora by Reefworks. I wrote to Clayton after recognising the picture of the blue "acropora turaki" colony on his web site and ask for explanation. His reply was as follows: "the bottle brush Acropora advertised is the one we previously called A. turaki. However we are not calling it Turaki any more as I believe it was a misidentification. A turaki we get in from Java, it has slightly larger tubular coralites but is very similar looking but I believe a different species." In fact, this coral has always been Acropora carduus :doh:.

 

[biggles]

Do you have the new T5 tubes yet Bulent ?

 

[DiscusHeckel]

Do you have the new T5 tubes yet Bulent ?

Not yet. They were posted yesterday from Hannover, Germany. They should be with me either today or tomorrow at the latest.

 

[biggles]

Not yet. They were posted yesterday from Hannover, Germany. They should be with me either today or tomorrow at the latest.

So 48 hours from now at the latest you will post pics of the display under the new tubes - that is how i read your reply so that's it then Bulent........48 hours mate...........

 

[DiscusHeckel]

I replaced my existing tubes exactly 9 months and 10 days ago. My tubes arrived last week from Germany in one piece.

I have just taken PAR measurements using an Apogee Quantum sensor connected to a multi-meter (readings are multiplied by 5 to obtain mmol values). I have run my 8 tubes for 9 hours before taking measurement. Water was very slightly turbid due to water change a few hours ago. Furthermore, there is no GAC filtering. Here are my readings:

These readings look OK to me. Because coloration of my corals are constantly improving and growth is rampant, I cannot justify tube replacement.

Do you, the SPS boffins, agree?

Cheers

Bulent

PS. Coral fragments on sand bed are going to my lfs on Friday. They will partly finance the purchase of a Genicanthus Watanabei.

 

[sahin]

Bulent your tank looks amazing with those large colonies. :beer:

As for the T5 tubes, you can easily pull at least another 3 months out of those tubes. I think Scotty runs his T5 tubes around 15 months! Although the PAR might remain pretty decent, we dont have enough data to show what acutaally happens in terms of spectral output...

I use my T5 tubes 12 months plus.

 

[DiscusHeckel]

Bulent your tank looks amazing with those large colonies. :beer:

As for the T5 tubes, you can easily pull at least another 3 months out of those tubes. I think Scotty runs his T5 tubes around 15 months! Although the PAR might remain pretty decent, we dont have enough data to show what acutaally happens in terms of spectral output...

I use my T5 tubes 12 months plus.

Thanks for your compliment Sahin.

I am not terribly worried about possible shifts in spectral output. I will keep the tubes as along as growth continues and corals' colouration does not lose their vibrancy. I may just get away with another three months as you say as I have a shallow tank. It would be excellent if I could extend this duration to fifteen months.

:beer:

 

[DiscusHeckel]

I decided to follow Mr Biggle's footsteps and started to feed my acroporas with Reef Roids last night. I used about 1/4 of a teaspoon. I even poured some dark black coloured skimmate before hand into the tank and turned off my skimmer for about one hour. There was a lot of commotion on the sand bed after my brittle stars (Ophioderma spp) got excited. I will repeat this twice a week to begin with and observe my corals for the next few weeks.

Latest test results:

Salinity: 52.1 mS (~34 ppt)
Ca: 405 ppm
KH: 6.4 dKH (coral growth is phenomenal despite low alkalinity. I thought one needed high alkalinity for good growth.) Alkalinity seems to be dropping quite low lately. It was 5.5 dKH before I raised it to 6.4 dKH in two days.
Mg: 1360 ppm
K: 300 ppm (low levels keep cyano at bay without affecting coral coloration or health)
NO3: ~0.2 ppm
PO4: 0.015-0.03 mg/l (in P terms)
Temp: 26.5 C-27.5 C

Use of Tropic Marin's NP bacto balance, in conjunction with Tropic Marin A- elements and K+ elements, and KZ sponge power have turned my tank around for the better. Detectable NO3 and PO4, which were not the case before, almost eliminated cyano. I no longer get cyano on the sand bed, which are now only confined to certain sections of live rock and weir box. If I increase potassium levels quickly, cyano bounce back. I am very sure of this now after observing the aftermaths of potassium dosage over a long period of time (after nearly two years of observation). If I must increase potassium levels, I do so very slowly. I use Tropic Marin's Pro-coral potassium as it is a concentrated solution.

Here are some photos I have just taken (I will try to obtain a tool of some sort and start to take top-down photos):

 

[M007]

Nice pics, looking good :beer:

 

[sahin]

Looking great Bulent.

How long have you been using Tropic Marin A- elements and K+ elements? Does it do anything for the coral colours?

 

[DiscusHeckel]

Nice pics, looking good :beer:

:beer:

Looking great Bulent.

How long have you been using Tropic Marin A- elements and K+ elements? Does it do anything for the coral colours?

Thanks Sahin.

Note that TM NP bacto balance also contains K+ elements (ml by ml basis). I started to use both A- and K+ elements at the end of last May though I started to use NP bacto balance at the end of last February. Both elements provide a complete diet of anionic and cationic minerals, which are supposed to "support ideal growth and natural coloration of corals and invertebrates". Looking at the ingredients K+ elements seem to contain colour related minerals (e.g. chrome, zinc, iron, manganese). Herr Balling argues that relying solely on water changes for trace elements is not enough especially if one has heavy bioload and thus trace elements and minerals ought to be replenished by aquarists. I tried to Salifert Trace hard in the past, but it encouraged cyanobacteria growth.

:beer:

 

[biggles]

Latest pics are awesome as always Bulent, top downs will be very yummy when you get a chance mate.
Did you notice an increase in skimmate collected the morning after you dropped some back in the display - it's odd how dropping something that is apparently poisonous toxin back into the water results in a positive reaction from the critters lol.........
Watch the amount of roids you dose as i'm almost certain they have a very high amino like content and too much of that will have the exact opposite effect you're chasing buddy

 

[DiscusHeckel]

Latest pics are awesome as always Bulent, top downs will be very yummy when you get a chance mate.
Did you notice an increase in skimmate collected the morning after you dropped some back in the display - it's odd how dropping something that is apparently poisonous toxin back into the water results in a positive reaction from the critters lol.........
Watch the amount of roids you dose as i'm almost certain they have a very high amino like content and too much of that will have the exact opposite effect you're chasing buddy

Yes, I did. I initially thought that it was my imagination. However, when I repeated the experiment the following night and observed the skimmate levels in the collection cup, there was more skimmate despite the fact that I skim really dry in these days.

Moreover, there is one negative development. I have noticed that there has been a marked increase in the number of aiptasia in the sump. I can count at least half a dozen new baby aiptasia around the skimmer's body. Is this as a result of Reef-Roids or skimmate or both? I need to find an answer these questions. After reading your warning on Reef-Roids, I will shelve it for a while and continue with skimmate dosing to isolate the cause, and will report back.

 

[biggles]

I don't ever permit aiptasia to exist in any of my reefs so i can't speak from experience Bulent but considering i've macro videoed acro polyps grabbing reef roids directly from the water column i reckon they'd be at least partly to blame - much more so than the water like skimmate dosing. Get some peppermint shrimp in the sump and sort those buggers out buddy.
I only asked about the skimmate increase to make sure you're seeing the obvious quick removal of the liquid being dosed before it has a chance to cause algae issues - it will if you dump the skimmate in first thing in the morning because i already tested that out many years ago. :thumbsup:

 

[DiscusHeckel]

I don't ever permit aiptasia to exist in any of my reefs so i can't speak from experience Bulent but considering i've macro videoed acro polyps grabbing reef roids directly from the water column i reckon they'd be at least partly to blame - much more so than the water like skimmate dosing. Get some peppermint shrimp in the sump and sort those buggers out buddy.
I only asked about the skimmate increase to make sure you're seeing the obvious quick removal of the liquid being dosed before it has a chance to cause algae issues - it will if you dump the skimmate in first thing in the morning because i already tested that out many years ago. :thumbsup:

I have no aiptasia in my display tank, but there are plenty in my weir box. I used to have plenty in my sump when I ran ligths for cheato. Since I removed the sump light, all aiptasia mysteriously vanished (they probably moved to the display tank and then fell victim to Mr E.T., my file fish)

As I said before, KZ sponge power has not yet encouraged population explosion, but it seems that (based on your observations) reef roids do. Hence, reluctantly and with much regret I have decided to remove aiptasia from my weir and sump (in that order) because I want reef roids to feed my corals as opposed to aiptasia. I am going to get a friend to Mr E.T. at the earliest opportunity. I do not want to disturb Mr. E. T. by moving him from place to place.

Andrew, I have a question about skimmate dosing. When I pour some skimmate juice into the water column I turn off my skimmer for a few hours for the benefit of filter feeders and corals. Is this what you do too? Or do you keep the skimmer running at all times?

Regards

Bulent

 

[reefmutt]

I decided to follow Mr Biggle's footsteps and started to feed my acroporas with Reef Roids last night. I used about 1/4 of a teaspoon. I even poured some dark black coloured skimmate before hand into the tank and turned off my skimmer for about one hour. There was a lot of commotion on the sand bed after my brittle stars (Ophioderma spp) got excited. I will repeat this twice a week to begin with and observe my corals for the next few weeks.

Latest test results:

Salinity: 52.1 mS (~34 ppt)
Ca: 405 ppm
KH: 6.4 dKH (coral growth is phenomenal despite low alkalinity. I thought one needed high alkalinity for good growth.) Alkalinity seems to be dropping quite low lately. It was 5.5 dKH before I raised it to 6.4 dKH in two days.
Mg: 1360 ppm
K: 300 ppm (low levels keep cyano at bay without affecting coral coloration or health)
NO3: ~0.2 ppm
PO4: 0.015-0.03 mg/l (in P terms)
Temp: 26.5 C-27.5 C

Use of Tropic Marin's NP bacto balance, in conjunction with Tropic Marin A- elements and K+ elements, and KZ sponge power have turned my tank around for the better. Detectable NO3 and PO4, which were not the case before, almost eliminated cyano. I no longer get cyano on the sand bed, which are now only confined to certain sections of live rock and weir box. If I increase potassium levels quickly, cyano bounce back. I am very sure of this now after observing the aftermaths of potassium dosage over a long period of time (after nearly two years of observation). If I must increase potassium levels, I do so very slowly. I use Tropic Marin's Pro-coral potassium as it is a concentrated solution.

Here are some photos I have just taken (I will try to obtain a tool of some sort and start to take top-down photos):

Bulent, great looking photos!
Question.. Above you talk about two different groups of things you have done: the roids and biggles' nsd method, and then the tropic Marin products.
Now you've raised nutrients a bit and reduced cyano.
Obviously the skimmate and roids is raising the nutrients.. Can you tell me what the rational for adding the other group of products together is? I know sponge power and I assume bacto balance is bacteria.. I guess I just want to hear your thinking behind your actions here..
Clearly it has had a positive effect. I am sure in a very complex way..

 

[DiscusHeckel]

Bulent, great looking photos!

Thank you Matt.

Question.. Above you talk about two different groups of things you have done: the roids and biggles' nsd method, and then the tropic Marin products.
Now you've raised nutrients a bit and reduced cyano.
Obviously the skimmate and roids is raising the nutrients.. Can you tell me what the rational for adding the other group of products together is? I know sponge power and I assume bacto balance is bacteria.. I guess I just want to hear your thinking behind your actions here..
Clearly it has had a positive effect. I am sure in a very complex way..

The previously mentioned Tropic Marin products are my main nutrient control tools. NP Bacto Balance contains organic and/or inorganics forms of nitrates (Nitrates can only be in one form by the way) and phosphates, cationic elements (i.e. K+ elements), and organic carbon. The nutrient reduction process is carried out in an intertwined fashion: Nitrates consume phosphates. Organic carbon consumes nitrates. However, during this process some nitrates and phosphates are left behind to ensure that corals are fed and thus do not suffer from nutrient deficiency.

Before I had gone on holiday last June, I made four changes in my maintenance routine:

First, I lowered the NP bacto balance dosage from initially 1.8 ml per day to 1.5 ml per day and then down to 1.2 ml per day. I did that because at high dose, my barometer coral, Acropora gomezi, started to look quite light blue as opposed to bright deep blue. I interpreted this as I was removing too much nutrients. This observation is consistent with Herr Balling's advice. He advises people not to be driven by test results. Instead, he advises people to observe the appearance of corals (specifically colouration and poly extension). As corals get lighter and/or retract their polyps, he advises to dose smaller amounts. Please note that I started with a daily dose of 0.25 ml of NP Bacto balance and then over the course of a few months, I increased the daily dose of up to 1.8 ml. While dosing chemicals, patience is required as it takes a while for organisms to adjust.

Second, I changed the setting of my skimmer to dry skimming, so that my neighbour did not have to empty the skimmer's cup frequently. Equally important, I hoped that by doing that my skimmer would remove less organics, thereby increasing nutrients in the water column.

Third, I increased the daily dose of KZ Sponge power from 2 or 3 drops (i.e. 2 drops one day and 3 drops the next day in turn) to 3 drops.

Four, I decreased the daily amount of food from 3 frozen cubes to 2 frozen cubes. I simply could not expect my neighbour to come to my house three times (i.e. one frozen cube per visit) a day even though he lives next door.

In conclusion, my overall rational was to increase the overall nutrient intake of the water column despite reduction in fish feeding. I saw this an insurance policy for the survival of my corals during my absence.

When I came back two weeks later, as I reported previously, I noticed that all my corals' colours looked much better. I asked my neighbour whether or not he made any changes to the dosing/feeding instructions I gave him inadvertently. He checked his daily record (yes, he kept a log file) and confirmed that he did not change anything. Equally important, I noticed that (this is the first time I am reporting this), there was a significant increase in the number of fan worms that live in my sump.

I checked the nitrates and phosphates, and noticed that there was a slight increase in both. My overall conclusion was that raising the nutrients brought benefits to my tank's inhabitants.

Coming back to your initial question, "Can you tell me what the rational for adding the other group of products together is?"

My rational is to increase nutrients further in a controlled and diversified way, and observe its consequences. I am trying to find out how far I can increase nutrients to improve the colouration and overall health of my corals before they start to become detrimental. I am also trying to find out if diversification of nutrient input will benefit my tank in some way.

I am taking nitrate and phosphate readings weekly while observing colouration and polyp extension of my corals. I have a second barometer coral, a wild pink millepora frag, which I acquired recently. This corals already started to look pinker after only two doses of skimmate liquid (I have stopped dosing Reef Roids for the time being to reduce the number of changes to one, and will not start until all aiptasia are cleared in my weir!). I am conscious of the fact that I can lean towards confirmation bias during my experiments. To eliminate this possibility, I have asked my younger son to observe the changes in colouration of this particular coral for me regularly.

What is the next step? If increase in diversified nutrient intake proves to be beneficial, then I will record the nitrate and phosphate readings, and will use them as my benchmarks. Hence, my nutrient control strategy is driven by the appearance of corals as opposed to numbers.

I realise that I have given you a very convoluted response. I wanted to give you a wider context. I hope that I have been able to articulate my thoughts clearly and that I have not confused you.

 

[reefmutt]

Thanks for the detailed response. Very informative.
Before I was using biopellets as nutrient control, I mixed vodka, vinegar and honey with calcium nitrate and RO water as a stock solution and used this in the same way as you are using bacto balance. I have always had an excess of p so there was no need to be adding this. I must say it was very effective. I made a week's supply and would test each week to see if more or less cano3 was required in the mix to keep n up and p down.
I'm considering going back to this method, but it is so much more labour intensive...
Your rational for adjusting your feeding and skimmer and roids makes sense for your absence..
The sponge power, however, has such a strong smell of vinegar, I always assumed that it would be in the nutrient reduction category- not the nutrient increase category... I say this without much real knowledge of what's in it...
You have informed me of what's in zeospur. (Essentially reef poison!!).. Do you know what's actually in sponge power?

 

[DiscusHeckel]

Noone really knows what is in sponge power. This is consistent with other KZ products in the sense that none knows what is in other KZ products either, hence the term "magic" blue bottles. However, well known Zeoheads in the Zeovit forum confirm that sponge power does not affect PO4 (@G. Alexander) , but can slightly increase NO3 (@Aged Salt). A (strong) smell of vinegar may also be some sort of preservative. Its positive affects are not just limited to encouraging the growth of sponges. It is widely reported that frags heal very quickly too. I can confirm that this is the case. Upon request of my lfs, I rest newly cut frags for one week before taking them to him for sale. He often comments on the speed with which new lumps appear on the cut sections of my frags. Hence, sponge power may well be some sort of biological accelerant as opposed to a traditional food source for a particular family of invertebrates.

 

[reefmutt]

Thanks for your detailed responses, Bulent!