I would say you have some other problem. My alkalinity jumps around a lot and they don't mind. Now that I've added more lights to increase the variety of corals I can grow the ones up high have shown some bleaching and are jumping off.
My first skimmerless system
- Thread starter Timfish
- Start date
I would say you have some other problem. My alkalinity jumps around a lot and they don't mind. Now that I've added more lights to increase the variety of corals I can grow the ones up high have shown some bleaching and are jumping off.
Mishri
Active member
softies will take up a lot of the nutrients that skimmers will remove. I 100% agree you shouldn't run skimmers on tanks with mostly softies. If you have an SPS dominated tank though, you'll probably need one for nutrient extraction. (I turned off the skimmer on my 40 breeder a while ago because i've got filter feeders and gorgonians in it).. I think I ran the skimmer for about 2 months is all.
marinelife
Active member
I have always found that softies do better in a skimmerless tank, I had skimmerless but was bitten in the butt when phosphates started leaching back out of the rock.
vikinglord13
New member
Wow, I am absolutely blown away by the wealth of knowledge you've shared since I last visited. I'll have to delve into those articles over this next week, maybe few weeks. I'm looking forward to learning quite a bit more.
Thank you.
Thank you.
Thought I'd post the parameters of the new salt water that goes into this system. I use just RO water and Austin uses chloramines so ammonia should be roughly 1 mg/l ut it has been several years since I've bothered testing tapwater for it. Other parameters are:
Alk 11 dKH
pH 8.2
Calcium 400 mg/l
Nitrate ~2 mg/l (Red Sea)
PO4 .1 mg/l (Nyos)
Mag 1600 mg/l
I have to disagree with some of the assumptions here. As far as the source of phosphate in a system the vast majority is introduced with animals that die or, hopefully more commonly with food. With localized pockets of low pH and various bioeroders there will always be small amounts released along the calcium, magnesium and bicarbonates released as sand and rock is dissolved but it's going to be a fraction of what's introduced with food. Corals need phosphate just as badly as any algae does and phosphate is just as important for photosynthesis in corals as it is in the other types of algae in our systems. While I prefer to think of the processes in our systems as nutrient recycling, Julian Sprung made the point in his book "Algae, a problem solving guide" that corals are an excellent source of nutrient export.
Unfortunately part of the mythos that has developed over the years around corals is the idea that the terms "softies", "LPS" and "SPS" indicate the husbandry requirements of an animal which couldn't be farther from the truth. They may be convienent colloqialisms or jargon but there's no correlation between the husbandry requirements of a species and any of those terms.
As far as nitrogen and phosphate the variable that does matter is the number of zooxanthellae a colony has. Research done decades ago showed a coral specifically removes (uptakes) ammonia for it's zooxantheallae. Corals uptake first organic forms then inorganic forms. The organic forms of nitrogen are urea and amino acids. Depending on how pure the aminio acids are there may be a significant amount of phosphate included and it seems obvious the fish poop that has urea will have inorganic phosphate, PO4, also. Zooplankton is the corals main source of organic phosphate but if they can't get it they are more than happy using PO4. What few aquarists seem to know is phosphate is the limiting nutrient for corals to use nitrogen. Being to aggressive at removing it without adding it back someway limits a corals ability to feed its zooxanthellae and when a corals becomes internally phosphate starved just slight changes in temperature and light will cause them to bleach.
From what I've read skimmers are not removing food used by corals but the DOC used by cryptic sponges which convert it into HCO3, bicarbonate, which is used by corals for photosynthesis and skeletal growth.
No, Thank You!
Alk 11 dKH
pH 8.2
Calcium 400 mg/l
Nitrate ~2 mg/l (Red Sea)
PO4 .1 mg/l (Nyos)
Mag 1600 mg/l
I have to disagree with some of the assumptions here. As far as the source of phosphate in a system the vast majority is introduced with animals that die or, hopefully more commonly with food. With localized pockets of low pH and various bioeroders there will always be small amounts released along the calcium, magnesium and bicarbonates released as sand and rock is dissolved but it's going to be a fraction of what's introduced with food. Corals need phosphate just as badly as any algae does and phosphate is just as important for photosynthesis in corals as it is in the other types of algae in our systems. While I prefer to think of the processes in our systems as nutrient recycling, Julian Sprung made the point in his book "Algae, a problem solving guide" that corals are an excellent source of nutrient export.
Unfortunately part of the mythos that has developed over the years around corals is the idea that the terms "softies", "LPS" and "SPS" indicate the husbandry requirements of an animal which couldn't be farther from the truth. They may be convienent colloqialisms or jargon but there's no correlation between the husbandry requirements of a species and any of those terms.
As far as nitrogen and phosphate the variable that does matter is the number of zooxanthellae a colony has. Research done decades ago showed a coral specifically removes (uptakes) ammonia for it's zooxantheallae. Corals uptake first organic forms then inorganic forms. The organic forms of nitrogen are urea and amino acids. Depending on how pure the aminio acids are there may be a significant amount of phosphate included and it seems obvious the fish poop that has urea will have inorganic phosphate, PO4, also. Zooplankton is the corals main source of organic phosphate but if they can't get it they are more than happy using PO4. What few aquarists seem to know is phosphate is the limiting nutrient for corals to use nitrogen. Being to aggressive at removing it without adding it back someway limits a corals ability to feed its zooxanthellae and when a corals becomes internally phosphate starved just slight changes in temperature and light will cause them to bleach.
From what I've read skimmers are not removing food used by corals but the DOC used by cryptic sponges which convert it into HCO3, bicarbonate, which is used by corals for photosynthesis and skeletal growth.
No, Thank You!
vikinglord13
New member
Hmmm, so is it accurate to say that when we have algae blooms due to phosphates it's because our filters (ATS, refugiums, GFO) are not removing the excess phosphate the corals cannot "consume"?
If that assumption was true this system should be over run with algae with a PO4 at ~2.0 mg/l.
These systems should also be over run with nuisance algae:
http://youtu.be/KhcRz50cV0s
http://youtu.be/_Uf5IyXvajg
http://youtu.be/-eCQSVdqBQA
What I see when I'm called to remediate an algae problem is water changes, manual removal and urchins will fix a hair alage problem without changing PO4 levels. Trying to understand why PO4 levels do not cause algae problems for me, why my systems and corals are far more resilient and why so many people who aggressively remove all measurable levels of PO4 still have hair algae or have poor coral colors and growth was a real eye opener. It's not just simply remove PO4 and nitrates. Corals are seeing it as organic nitrogen, inorganic nitrogen, organic phosphate and inorgainc phosphate. And then we have the various roles of DOC which quickly leads to the competing microbial processes between corals and algae. And then we have to throw in the cryptic sponges and their role in using DOC to provide HCO3 to corals. Most of these are way beyond our ability to test or monitor but fortunately the corals have it figured out. So I don't worry about nitrate or PO4 and I don't have jump through hoops battling nuisance algae to to get or stay ahead of it (unless you call small weekly water changes jumping through hoops) and my systems, corals and fish live for decades.
So to reitterate my book recommendation get Rohwer's "Coral Reefs in the Microbial Seas" It's very informative and has a very good list of references to follow up with if you want. I would also recommend Delbeck and Sprungs "Reef Aquarium" Vol III as the filter section has a very good description of the simple systems by Lee Chin Eng and Dr. Jaubert (as well as a discussion of the problems with algae turf systems encountered by a public aquarium in Australia).
These systems should also be over run with nuisance algae:
http://youtu.be/KhcRz50cV0s
http://youtu.be/_Uf5IyXvajg
http://youtu.be/-eCQSVdqBQA
What I see when I'm called to remediate an algae problem is water changes, manual removal and urchins will fix a hair alage problem without changing PO4 levels. Trying to understand why PO4 levels do not cause algae problems for me, why my systems and corals are far more resilient and why so many people who aggressively remove all measurable levels of PO4 still have hair algae or have poor coral colors and growth was a real eye opener. It's not just simply remove PO4 and nitrates. Corals are seeing it as organic nitrogen, inorganic nitrogen, organic phosphate and inorgainc phosphate. And then we have the various roles of DOC which quickly leads to the competing microbial processes between corals and algae. And then we have to throw in the cryptic sponges and their role in using DOC to provide HCO3 to corals. Most of these are way beyond our ability to test or monitor but fortunately the corals have it figured out. So I don't worry about nitrate or PO4 and I don't have jump through hoops battling nuisance algae to to get or stay ahead of it (unless you call small weekly water changes jumping through hoops) and my systems, corals and fish live for decades.
So to reitterate my book recommendation get Rohwer's "Coral Reefs in the Microbial Seas" It's very informative and has a very good list of references to follow up with if you want. I would also recommend Delbeck and Sprungs "Reef Aquarium" Vol III as the filter section has a very good description of the simple systems by Lee Chin Eng and Dr. Jaubert (as well as a discussion of the problems with algae turf systems encountered by a public aquarium in Australia).
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In the recent past it's had nitrates at 1 mg/l (Nyos) but as of a few weeks ago it's dropped down to <.25 mg/l (Red Sea Pro). And this is when I'm adding ammonia and nitrate with water changes and with food. Corals and algae are competing with each other for nitrogen, organic and inorganic, and for phosphates, orgainc and inorganic, and promoting confliciting microbial communities. It has has far more to do with healthy corals that can compete with algae successfully than with nitrates or PO4 per se. Arbitrarily stripping out nitrates and PO4 can impact corals limiting their ability to compete and giving algae the edge even when PO4 reads 0.00. Systems can be successful, at least on the short term, aggressively stripping out nitrate and PO4 like in the ULNS methods IF nitrogen and phosphate is supplemented by dosing or with target feeding corals or with keeping and feeding fish. (My experience is when aggressive methods are used corals become far less resiliant to drifts or sudden changes in water parameters.)
To help clarify organic nitrogen is urea (fish poop) and amino acids. inorganic nitrogen is ammonia (~50% of a fish's nitrogenous waste is excreted as ammonia/ammonium from it's gills) and nitrate. (if you're wondering about nitrite it is so quickly converted back to ammonia or to nitrate it's pretty much a non issue.) Organic phosphate is zooplankton (I'm not sure if dead zooplankton qualifies as organic or inorganic phosphate). Inorganic phosphate (aka PO4 or orthophosphate) is in in fish poop and in food and in tap water. (A note here about amino acids, when they make up RNA or DNA there is a lot of phosphate attached, however, if an amino acid supplement is fairly pure there shouldn't be much phosphate but my guess is depending on how an amino acid supplement is processed there is the possibility it may contain a lot of phosphate and I'm not sure it it would be organic or inorganic although my gut tells me at after processing it would fall into the inorganic category.)
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This is interesting. In freshwater planted tanks there is a method of dosing called EI. The theory is to dose large quantities of nutrients to so that they are a non-limiting resource. As long as the majority of the tank is densely planted and light and C02 are provided in the proper amounts, the plants out compete the algae. In reading this thread it is interesting to consider that coral growth may be able to provide a similar function. I wonder if the types of corals grown is a factor.
vikinglord13
New member
Added the books to my amazon wishlist. Who knows when I'll get around to reading them, but I will one day.
Thanks again for sharing the info!
Thanks again for sharing the info!
I think it can be expanded to proper nutrition is essential for any animal or plant to be healthy and comptete. There are studies of some species of coral outcompeting and over taking algae on their own. My suspicion is how fast the coral species grows is going to be a factor.
Thank You! Rohwer's book is a surprisingly easy read (sometimes entertaining and somtimes poignant) considering how complex the subject is.
2smokes
In Memoriam
Aminoacids are organic.Proteins are made of aminoacids that decompose to amine.Amine are putrescine,cadaverine...bad smelling substances that decompose until you get with amonia .Food is made of aminoacids but different species need different aminoacids in different quantityes.I think you dont have algae issues even at higher po4 because its a mature aquarium that is verry stable.The rocks got covered with a layer of calcium that locked the posphates from leaching.No rocks leaching=no cyano or GHA invasion.
Yes, as I have pointed out elsewhere corals need nitrogen and amino acids are an organic form they will use for food along with ammonia and urea and lastly nitrate.
Different species might prefer different amino acids but I haven't stumbled across any research yet looking at specific amino acids and specific species.* The requirement of nitrogen for zooxanthellae is universal and corals have demonstrated some very complex and sophisticated methods for utilizing nitrogen in all it's forms including using symbionts to fix nitrogen into nitrates (somewhat similar I guess to plants like soybeans) and recycling nitrogen within the coral holobiont.
I guess we both agree the PO4 levels in water are not the primary cause for nuisance algae. I don't think the jumps in water parameters qualify for most aquarist's definition of "stable" however.
Based on my understanding of the chemistry and the dissolution I've seen in my "stable" systems I have to disagree. Any calcium carbonate that's deposited in an aquarium is also going to be binding phosphate with it so we're back to phosphate leaching. Bioerroders are pretty active in our systems. Much of the discoloration that we see on rock are algae and sponges species that are actively dissolving it. I guess another problem I have with your statement is the logical conclusion for nuisance algae growing on glass and plastic is those are leaching phosphates also. :/
Below is an image of freshly dead coral skeleton with lower areas that died from lack of light and water flow showing the dissolution that happened over the period of just a few months:
*Toonen has a paper out showing different foods and feeding regimes benefited two species differentially:
http://www.academia.edu/1647139/Coral_farming_effects_of_light_water_motion_and_artificial_foods
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2smokes
In Memoriam
The algae that grows on glass or plastic feeds with phosphates from the water not from the leeching rocks.But when an algae or cyano outbreak ,they will grow mostly on rocks and sand and verry litle on the glass.Any new rock or coral skeleton that hasnt been covered in calcium from the water releases phosphates even if the rock is added in a well established aquarium.When an equilibrum is achieved and the stones doesnt ,,melt,, then the phosphates will not be released back into the water.
Well, call me dim witted or stuck in my dogma but how does a layer of calcium carbonate on top of a calcium carbonate rock or skeleton keep it from being attacked by bioeroders. We know calcium carbonate can't dissolve in a pH above 7.8 by itself so I don't see how phosphate can be released when it's tied to the calcium molecules. Can you post links to research showing how this happens? How are you determining it's phosphate leaching from rock that causes algae problems when there's much more phosphate being added to a tank in food?
Here's another example of what I've seen how bioeroders dissolve calcium carbonate substrates:
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2smokes
In Memoriam
I would never call you dim witted or say that you are stuck in your dogma.But bioeroders melting calcium carbonate rock like you posted with soo beautifull images as exemplification do not alter the aquarium water much because thoose dissolve too litle calcium carbonate and too slow for it to have an impact in any aquarium.Lower PH does dissolve a litle (verry litle ,not visible with the naked eye) the rock and makes the phosphates available.Any coral skeleton and any calcium carbonate rock has phosphates in it.To demonstrate you this,you can read my forum here and altough the general opinion in the coments there is that i am wrong you can decide yourself if im wrong and make your own conclusions.http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2605484
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