My first skimmerless system
- Thread starter Timfish
- Start date
So all you have to support your position that a layer of calcium carbonate on top of a calcium carbonate substrate prevents the calcium carbonate substrate from dissolving or eroding is a picture of a heating element? No other references or links to research? I think it's obvious what my conclusion is.
vikinglord13
New member
Looks great.
Did I spot a Regal Angel at :19 to the bottom right of the toadstool?
Did I spot a Regal Angel at :19 to the bottom right of the toadstool?
victor_c3
Premium Member
I believe I've interacted with you in a thread I started a while back about building a large cryptic sump.
You are obviously much more current on your research, but I found myself coming to many of the same conclusions that you have. I've been planning on building a very large skimmerless system for quite some time using a very large cryptic filtration system similar to that outlined by Steve Tyree. Seeing someone else having success with a similar concept and reaching the same conclusions gives me much more confidence to move forward with my plan. At some point I will start a thread in the "Advanced Topics" section about my system as I start to put it together.
I find it funny that you cite many of the same articles that I have saved on my computer to support your conclusions!
You are obviously much more current on your research, but I found myself coming to many of the same conclusions that you have. I've been planning on building a very large skimmerless system for quite some time using a very large cryptic filtration system similar to that outlined by Steve Tyree. Seeing someone else having success with a similar concept and reaching the same conclusions gives me much more confidence to move forward with my plan. At some point I will start a thread in the "Advanced Topics" section about my system as I start to put it together.
I find it funny that you cite many of the same articles that I have saved on my computer to support your conclusions!
CrayolaViolence
New member
I'd love to see more threads like this where information for skimmerless systems is made available. And other low tech reef methods.
Do you have a suggested book list for those of us who want to read more? Thanks so much!!
Do you have a suggested book list for those of us who want to read more? Thanks so much!!
victor_c3
Premium Member
I purchased and read the book by Steve Tyree at the link below:
http://reeffarmers.com/newbook.htm
There is a ton of great information and research in that book. It depends on how much you like reading scientific sort of literature, but that is exactly what the first half or so of the book is. He goes into great detail about the environment and sorts of creatures live on a coral reef, the flow, lighting, nutrient levels, etcetera. Given that many of his corals are legendary in the hobby, it is apparent to me that he knows what he is talking about.
The basic gist of his methodology is to use the natural filtering capabilities of sponges and filter feeders to maintain our aquariums instead of skimmers and filter socks. I haven't set up a system like the one he advocates personally, but my next system will be built following his methodology. The big thing that attracts me to this methodology is the increased biodiversity in these systems. I also hope to dabble with some non-photosynthetic gorgonians an corals in the future and I believe this might be the best route for that.
Post number 18 in this thread by Tim Fish cites many of the articles I read years ago about bacteria counts and skimmers in our aquariums. The reasons addressed in those articles are precisely why I want to stay away from a skimmer in my next system.
I'm on the verge of starting to put my system together and I will more than likely start a thread in the "advanced topics" sub-forum of reefcentral in the very near future (hopefully within the next week). Keep an eye out for it if you are interested. I will definitely be looking for feedback from people with more experience than me.
CrayolaViolence
New member
Yes, I prefer scientific books. I'm kind of confused though on how that link leads to where I can purchase the book. Is it only available in PDF? I prefer to have my scientific books in paper where I can make notes and highlight stuff.
Nano sapiens
New member
The last skimmer that I used was the original Sanders with the wooden airstone back in the mid 80s 
As Timfish mentioned, I have also found that the more 'natural' approach (no mechanical or chemical filtration, in my case) has resulted in more robust systems throughout the decades. My previous mid-sized 'mixed reef' ran for nearly 10 years before I took it down and my current small nano has been up for nearly 9 years (some of the corals in the current system are 18 years old).
However, the original simple reef keeping methodologies have somewhat fallen by the wayside as it's difficult to compete with the 'sexy/cool' factor of having a system with all the bells-and-whistles.
As Timfish mentioned, I have also found that the more 'natural' approach (no mechanical or chemical filtration, in my case) has resulted in more robust systems throughout the decades. My previous mid-sized 'mixed reef' ran for nearly 10 years before I took it down and my current small nano has been up for nearly 9 years (some of the corals in the current system are 18 years old).
However, the original simple reef keeping methodologies have somewhat fallen by the wayside as it's difficult to compete with the 'sexy/cool' factor of having a system with all the bells-and-whistles.
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Yes you did. Sadly I have to report it's demise as well as the death of the 12 year old Coral Beauty.
My suspicion is a Family level pathogen. It's admitidly circumstantial but here are my reasons: The Regal had a cloudy eye and some cloudy areas with a few small red splotches on it's fins when I received it so it stayed in QT for 8 weeks, 4 weeks with clear fins and weeks with a clear eye. After adding it to the system the affected eye had clouded back up in 5 or 6 days. Since it was just one eye I did not do anything which is normal for just one fish with one cloudy eye. Two weeks later the both of the Coral Beauty's eye had clouded over which prompted me to add a 40 watt UV sterilizer. Fortunately none of the other fish, including the Regal Tang, showed any symptoms except the Yellow tang which developed one cloudy eye. The following week the Regal Angel was found dead behind the rocks and the Coral Beauty was lethargic enough it could be caught and was euthanized (clove oil). Within a week the Yellow Tang's eye had cleared up and none of the other tangs showed any thing unusual.
Sadly I haven't found anything more current than Vol III of Delbeek and Sprung's "Reef Aquarium". They are the only authors I know of that have tried discussing the different methodologies for maintaining reef aquariums. Tyree's books are a valuable perspective but I clearly do not adhere strictly to his approach. Jasper de Geoij's thesis qualifies as a substantial book at 190+ pages but it focuses on just a few species of sponge and not methodologies on reef keeping (which gives an indication of how complex this subject is). Rohwer's book is very informative and provides an excellent starting point with references to more recent research on DOC and microbes but again it does not go into methodologies for reef keeping.
Yup, but I question running any system with high or close to it's max fish bioload capacity is smart. What I've seen over the decades is the biggest threat to systems are AC and power failures followed by equipment failure and well intentioned efforts on the parts of uninformed people. Running a system with high fish biomass insures when AC, power or equipment fails or stupid things are done more things will die faster. If I had run this system at it's theoretical max I could have lost everything (post #27): http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2388344&highlight=20+year+tangs&page=2
But my question for you is what do you think is the limiting factor for fish bioload in a system?
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Your welcome! The sump provides surface area for better gas exchange (and getting rid of CO2 is a lot harder than adding O2), additional areas for cryptic sponges that convert DOC released by corals and algae into DIC (alkalinity, HCO3-), space to increase the overall system volume, and there's no ATO so any evaporation is not seen in the display tank.
There's several reasons for the low nitrates. First of all the small water changes, ~7%, aren't enough to get rid of nitrates. Phosphate is a limiting nutrient for corals to use nitrogen. By providing enough phosphate and having enough corals the corals utilize all the ammonia released by fish, the nitrifying bacteria never have the chance to break it down into nitrates.
panigale
New member
HI
A good read and great to see the results you are getting with no skimmer. was going to not put a skimmer in my system this time round (2 years ago) but broke under reading pressure and put one in.I may need to do a small experiment and turn it of for a few weeks and see how my corals react to the change. I do think that LPS will do great but not sure how my SPS will react do the change and it has taken me a while to get my SPS going.
A good read and great to see the results you are getting with no skimmer. was going to not put a skimmer in my system this time round (2 years ago) but broke under reading pressure and put one in.I may need to do a small experiment and turn it of for a few weeks and see how my corals react to the change. I do think that LPS will do great but not sure how my SPS will react do the change and it has taken me a while to get my SPS going.
Thank you Pinagle! To see more videos of my skimmerless system here's a link to my youtube channel: https://www.youtube.com/user/timfishone
panigale
New member
I see you don't have wave makers either? just air bubbles right and the return pump moves your water and seems to be working for you. I always thought when you dont have much water movement in the tank you get cyno build up in dead areas and all over the sand but not in your tank so another plus. do you have SPS in tank cant seem to see on video?
cheers
cheers
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