My first skimmerless system

[karimwassef]

I ran my own experiment with my dual ended MH without protective glass...

Nothing actually survived on the rock but my water had never been clearer

 

[Subsea]

Tim,

Let us discuss GAC as an indiscriminate removal of DOC by absorption and adsorption. DOC contains a library of different components and GAC will remove them all.

Considering the vast number of different sponges, which sponges remove which component in DOC. I do not think we totally know that. In any case, because I am not chemist, I use modest amount of GAC continually. I only replace it when something in the tank tells me to. Bio indicators again.

 

[Scrubber_steve]

Tim,

Let us discuss GAC as an indiscriminate removal of DOC by absorption and adsorption. DOC contains a library of different components and GAC will remove them all.

Considering the vast number of different sponges, which sponges remove which component in DOC. I do not think we totally know that. In any case, because I am not chemist, I use modest amount of GAC continually. I only replace it when something in the tank tells me to. Bio indicators again.

This is a very good question. I don't agree that GAC removes all DOCs. But GAC is very effective, & easy to implement. Tyree's cryptic sponge zone may be natural, but it isn't so easily implemented. Great care has to be taken to pre-filter all particulates, & the flow must be carefully controlled so as not to be too fast. Seeding with the correct sponge types is also not straight forward. Then there is the biomass cryptic/exposed zone balance, as well as other considerations. The more I read through CMAT vol 1 & 2, the more critical & complicated it seems to become to get the necessary Goldie Locks happy medium for it to be advantageous & effective.

 

[Subsea]

Reefkeeping is an Art

Reefkeeping is an Art

Twin,

Having previously read Volume 3 of Julian Sprung & Charles Delbrick, the title rings true. "œArt, Science and Technology". There is some good art work going on here.

With respect to sponges, I like them and I did turn out the lights on my 25 year old 30G mud/macro refugium. The pods and worms like it just fine with the lights out. I removed macro, put eggcrate spacers on top of mud then added dry rock, then added seeded rock. It looks very good to me. The refugium has never looked better. It cleaned itself up with lights off.

 

[Scrubber_steve]

Twin,

Having previously read Volume 3 of Julian Sprung & Charles Delbrick, the title rings true. "œArt, Science and Technology". There is some good art work going on here.

With respect to sponges, I like them and I did turn out the lights on my 25 year old 30G mud/macro refugium. The pods and worms like it just fine with the lights out. I removed macro, put eggcrate spacers on top of mud then added dry rock, then added seeded rock. It looks very good to me. The refugium has never looked better. It cleaned itself up with lights off.

I don't understand your comment about art?

From post 103 you appear to be questioning sponges ability to take up various types of dissolved organic compounds and promoting activated carbon.
But you have gone ahead & started a cryptic sponge sump ???

 

[Subsea]

Many people operate reef tanks differently with success. Many times, the success is not due to the method but success is due to the operator that understands there is always a balancing act in maintaining a reef tank. Between the operator and the dynamic equilibrium of “natural systems” there is a form of Art to maintaining a reef tank with ease and finesse.

Nothing about turning out the lights in my refugium contradicts using GAC or questioning the DOC removal limitations of sponges. When I turned out the lights, I only removed refugium macro from the equation. Indirectly, that could remove a source of DOC. Also, by turning out lights in refugium, cryptic sponges should increase there-by reducing DOC. Not knowing which compounds in DOC are being removed by sponges, I choose to broad spectrum remove DOC and use GAC.

 

[Scrubber_steve]

Nothing about turning out the lights in my refugium contradicts using GAC or questioning the DOC removal limitations of sponges. When I turned out the lights, I only removed refugium macro from the equation. Indirectly, that could remove a source of DOC. Also, by turning out lights in refugium, cryptic sponges should increase there-by reducing DOC. Not knowing which compounds in DOC are being removed by sponges, I choose to broad spectrum remove DOC and use GAC.

The sponges, unlike activated carbon will add disolved inorganics to the system, & , as I have asked in your thread 'Then & Now' how are you going to deal with the increase in disolved inorganics now that you have removed your algae?

Reply in your thread so we do not hi-jack Tims thread pls.

 

[almees]

http://s359.photobucket.com/user/almees/media/Aquarium 2016/IMG_0213.jpg.html?o=26

Great reading, I have run with no skimmer for 5 to 6 years. It broke and I never replaced it. I always had the idea that natural processes were best for a reef system.

My tank was a 125 gallon with 55-gallon refuge, separated into three sections 1.5 ft. for rocks and skimmer before it broke, 1 ft. for return, last 1.5 ft. for cheato. Over the years I have filled up the skimmer area and return pump area with live rock and maintained the cheato section. I might do a water change once a year. I don’t have any algae issues and can’t remember the last time I had any. I have all types of corals with good growth from all types.

I just started transferring my system to a 220 since the center brace broke in my 125 gallon tank.

 

[Subsea]

Almees,

It is always good to hear of people’s success with their reef keeping techniques. Your link did not work for me.

 

[Timfish]

I ran my own experiment with my dual ended MH without protective glass...

Nothing actually survived on the rock but my water had never been clearer

Well, good job confirming the warnings from MH fixture and bulb manufacturers.

. . .In nature, the top surface of the water is constantly sterilized by solar UV. . .

https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/BF00572672

https://www.google.com/amp/s/wattsu...decrease-suns-ability-to-disinfect-lakes/amp/

http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/8...sunlight-and-salt-or-lime-juice/#.Wf9p_YVMGEc

To be honest I don't see any of the links you posted support your position that surface waters are sterilized by solar UV.

The first link is looking at what potentially will happen in the future, not what is currently occuring.

The second link is a news article based on this paper
"Climate change-induced increases in precipitation are reducing the potential" for solar ultraviolet radiation to inactivate pathogens in surface waters" Looking at human pathogens there is a range of inactivation by sunlight, some faster other slower. The researchers have developed a useful model for determining how the "Solar Inactivation Potential" in waters might be influenced by the type and increses or decreases in DOC but they caution in their conclusion "This study is a first step and further empirical surveys and experimental studies are needed to confirm the importance of solar UV inactivation relative to other environmental controls of pathogen abundance."


The blog in the third link references SODIS which is a real lifesaver in undeveloped countries. It's hard to over emphasize the significance this simple method has in providong safe drinking water for people. But it's used to make surface water, and well water, safe to drink. The surface waters have not already been sterilized by sunlight. It's also using oxygen along with UV to "photooxidize" and solar heating to kill pathogens.

 

[Timfish]

. . . I would further like to discuss why limited use of GAC. What is the downside of continuous use? Also for some without large, mature biological filters, there is no other equal to the chemical absorption of GAC.

Because I'm lazy. I have several homemade "reactors" that hold a cup or so of GAC and/or GFO. But it's unusual to use them.

From what I've read roughly 2/3rds of DOC on reefs is "refractory" and has life expectancies from years to mellinium. The only research I've found where DOC is completely removed is "super heterotrophic" microbial populations associated with systems over taken by algae.

 

[karimwassef]

I report what has worked for me and while research specifically on reefs is soft, the physics is the same.



I only use my UV as an emergency protocol. It's plumbed in but not on. I don't use GAC. My filter is sand, algae and cryptic sponges and my growth is fantastic because I overfeed heavily and can keep my inorganics below measurement kit levels. I don't even use live rock. My 660gal reef system is concrete and PVC based and seeded with less than 20lbs of live rock... everything grew out of that.

 

[Subsea]

Sorry, I read your thread a few times already but I still don't understand.
Why is it that your tank has high Phosphate and Nitrate but your tank isn't being over run with algae?

I have also thought about this scenario because I have high nitrate > 40 ppm and high phosphate which I do not measure. By looking at bio indicators,
I see cyanobacteria, that is my measurement tool. My Jaubert Plenum is talking to me to perform phosphate export by vacume out cyanobacteria.

I have some algae but with bi weekly vacume water change, I am getting slowly ahead of algae. Urchins help, but I hate the way they bull doze aquascaping.

 

[Jeramirez85]

Nice tank and surprised of the results of being skimmerless

 

[Timfish]

Nice tank and surprised of the results of being skimmerless

Thank You!

I'm curious why you're surprised though?

 

[Subsea]

I continue to move in your direction with my 25 year old Jaubert Plenum. Because of neglect on my part the sandbed suffered. By not making wise choices with intank janitors, specifically detrivores, my sandbed is now a good source of both organic and inorganic nutrients to tank inhabitants. The filter feeders, including suspension feeders like sea apples work overtime when sandbed is stirred.

In the case of a newly introduced Chilli Coral, this detritus in suspension equated to reef boulders on steroids. Chilli did not like it. Oddly enough, a 25 year old mud macro refugium was converted to a mud cryptic refugium three months ago and is now providing this deep water NPS with renewal. Go for the gusto, Chilli. Some people like it in the dark. Go figure.

Without a doubt, “turning out the light” in refugium has shifted eco system to favor filter feeders, which includes corals. When I look into my tank at night with my X Ray vision I see many feathers and tentacles. It is like a zoo at night. When working in the deep water of the nutrient rich Gulf of Mexico, the big big fish came out at night. The reason for that was because the food came out at night, because of intense prey during the day.

So, in summary. The food chain begins at the bottom with phytoplankton and zooplankton. Protein skimmers remove both. That does not work for me.

 

[karimwassef]

For sand beds, my key is worms.. I love my sand worms. The only larger inhabitants are cucumbers & wrasses. Oh... I also suspended all my rocks so the surface is completely open... snails and crabs hate it because they can't climb up easily, but the sand is always healthy and white.

I just removed all the rock (we're moving) and I can see it all again

 

[vikinglord13]

I think many often forget the importance of a good detrivorous pod population for sand bed health

 

[Subsea]

I think many often forget the importance of a good detrivorous pod population for sand bed health

I concur. I have been cleaning up a neglected 25 year old Jaubert Plenum due to lack of detrivores. In my Jaubert Plenum with CaribSea crushed coral @ 3-5mm in diameters, it is perfect for amphipods and copepods.

 

[vikinglord13]

I used to have a good pod population and I think siphoning the sand bed killed most, if not all, of everything. I'm tempted to not siphon it anymore, just inject it with water, and replenish my pods. I haven't seen any in awhile.