My journey using Chloroquine Phosphate begins...

[jeremyjoslin]

I've got a 40g DT with 150g of sump/refugium. I have a single damsel, single yellow tang, and a mated pair of perculas. I also have an assortment of LPS, SPS, softies, and macro algaes.

I've not seen any signs of ich, but not naive enough to believe it couldn't be in there. I'm upgrading to a 300g DT, and will take this opportunity to establish QT procedures using the transfer method. I'm trying to decide on what to do with my LR, macro, and corals while I QT my current fish (and then all future fish).

I know that if there's cryptocarion in the tank, then there'll be cysts settled in the tank (i haven't memorized all the stages, but understand them).

If I remove all fish to QT, and then feed them chloroquine foods while in QT (plus add prazi to water/food), this should get blood levels high enough kill any attached ich, but then ALSO since the half life is so long, once I return the fish to the untreated tank, kill any ich that matures to where the parasites attach to the fish.

In essence, the fish would be immune from ich for several weeks while the tank goes through a quasi-fallow period (since ich can't complete life cycle, they would eventually all die).

Problems with this???

I'm just trying to avoid a 72 day QT and parallel fallow period.

 

[Irenicus]

Thanks b0bab0ey and alprazo for your valuable input. I'm starting CP treatment tomorrow. A couple questions (maybe I missed it, if so, I apologize)

- Why did you treat for 100 days? During my trial, I'm guessing I should go 3 weeks?
- Did you just use ambient room lighting to feed the fish? Did you turn off that ambient light after the fish were fed? I'm trying to determine how I should provide light during this trial period.

 

[b0bab0ey]

- Why did you treat for 100 days? During my trial, I'm guessing I should go 3 weeks?

I was in the process of moving, so that's why I left my fish in QT for 100 days. Everything I've read suggests that 4 weeks in CP should take care of any Ich, Velvet or Brook. IMO, 4 weeks is probably overkill, but better safe than sorry...

- Did you just use ambient room lighting to feed the fish? Did you turn off that ambient light after the fish were fed? I'm trying to determine how I should provide light during this trial period.

I highly recommend as little light as possible during treatment, as light can break down CP. This is so important because being there's no CP test kit available, it's vital to do everything you can to maintain the proper dosage. I wouldn't put your QT near a window or anywhere it may get direct sunlight.

I always fed when the room had some natural ambient light or in the dark, if necessary. Fish use smell more than sight to detect food, so you'll be fine. I also fed a little less than normal, because being it's dark the fish were less active. I would turn on the aquarium light maybe once a week, for less than a few minutes, just so I could look the fish over for visible signs of disease.

Other than that, just provide your fish with lots of hiding places (PVC fittings). Mine stayed mostly in these during treatment. Resting, I suppose, and this might have also helped with their recovery.

 

[ReefTeacher]

I cannot find a source for Dr G's so I tried an experiment. I added a little CP to frozen food using SeaChem focus as a binder. It was NOT well accepted and the fish spit most of it out. After a week the infected purple tang was much worse. So I started dosing in the water tonight since I know that that works. JME

 

[alprazo]

The source I use has told me that they add medications to fish meal for aquatic mammals. They use a mold in the form of a fish. The medication is measured and given to the specific dolphin, seals, etc that need it, based on weight. I spoke with him about creating something similar for fish using mysis but never followed up on it. I was thinking 1mg per shrimp or something like that. There would probably have to be different strengths, just like pills. It would have to be frozen and shipped on ice so I don't know how well it would work and probably labor intensive causing high prices. If I had a porpoise In my basement it would make more sense and probably worth the cost.

 

[h2so4hurts]

Al, Dr. G's sells chloroquin Phosphate medicated frozen food:
http://www.drgsmarineaquaculture.com/frozen-antiparasitic-detail.cfm

 

[b0bab0ey]

Al, Dr. G's sells chloroquin Phosphate medicated frozen food:
http://www.drgsmarineaquaculture.com/frozen-antiparasitic-detail.cfm

The problem is finding a LFS that sells it.

I've noticed many reef shops focus mostly on "herbal meds", since they know their customers will freak out if they tell them to catch all their fish, QT them, go fallow for 9 weeks, etc. The herbal stuff usually makes the problem go away for a little while, their corals are unaffected by it and the customer resumes buying fish. When the problem comes back, it must have been some new fish you bought. I think a lot of LFS owners would be hesitant to sell Dr. G's as "reef safe", knowing the potential impact CP can have on a fully stocked reef.

You usually have to order online or go to a PetCo/PetSmart if you want to get your hands on some real meds. Even Walmart usually sells "Quick-Cure" which at least has Formalin in it. Sad, isn't it?

 

[h2so4hurts]

I also missed the line on the main page that says you can only pick the medicated food up at local stores. They don't sell it on their site.

 

[alprazo]

So the issue is this... From everything I can gather, speaking with a pharmacy and seeing the comments from their attorney, chloroquine requires a prescription for retail sale.

There may be a minimum quantity that can be sold without one, hence the inaccurate labelling that you may find with at least one online vendor.

Anyway, here is a pretty detailed review of Dr. G's food.

http://re#fbuilders.com/2012/07/17/dr-gs-medicated-frozen-foods/

 

[b0bab0ey]

Anyway, here is a pretty detailed review of Dr. G's food.

Thanks for the good info! Keep it coming!

 

[b0bab0ey]

Just a little general update:

I am currently prophylactically treating 3 fish with CP, at a dosage of 40mg per gal. 1 (Blonde Naso Tang) is being treated in a 29 gal bare-bottom with a seeded AC 70 for filtration. The other 2 (Lemonpeel Angel & Royal Gramma) are being treated in a 20 gal bare-bottom with a seeded AC 50 for filtration.

10 days into CP treatment I am noticing cloudy water in both tanks. This concerned me until I re-read post #37 of this thread and realized this happened to me before when using CP without any ill effects. However, I then re-read post #45 and realized I lost a Sixline Wrasse the very first time I treated with CP. Well, I got another Sixline Wrasse in and lost that one as well a few days ago (he was being treated in the 20 gal with the Angel & Royal Gramma). In all fairness, he never ate from Day 1 (before beginning CP treatment), but this makes me 0-2 in successfully getting Sixline Wrasses thru CP treatment. So, I'm unsure whether or not wrasses have a problem with CP treatment. But it's interesting to note that both Sixline Wrasses just withered away and stopped eating after using CP on them.

 

[b0bab0ey]

This caught my eye in the drug interactions sticky, so I did a little research and have confirmed it (see links below):

"praziquantel may have its serum concentration decreased by chloroquine"

So, this means if you treat prophylactically then it would be best to deworm with PraziPro before beginning CP treatment, if at all possible. If you do it after, then you need to get the CP out of the water beforehand. I know light will break CP down, but does anyone know of a quicker, more effective way? Carbon perhaps?

http://www.mims.com/USA/interaction/Search/praziquantel%7Cchloroquine

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/bdd.2510150103/abstract

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8161714

 

[laurie64]

Hi all, glad to see this thread. I am currently treating a 75 gal with live rock and sand with quinne sulfate. I am on day 6 of treatment. The fish in the tank are a scribble angel, blue line angel, black spotted leopard wrasse and two picasso percs. So far treating at 1/4 tsp per 10 gallons, I have seen no return of ich. My bio filter has not suffered any set backs. All of the fish are eating normal, including the wrasse. If someone looked at this tank, they would never guess it was being treated. BTW this is my qt tank. I have pretty much tossed any copper and formalin I had.

 

[laurie64]

Oh, btw I was doing the 7 day treatment then do the 20% water change then maybe run carbon for a few days, take the carbon out and do the treatment for the 2nd dose of 7 days. What do you guys think about that? Or should I just do the water change and add the 2nd dose like the directions say.

 

[RegalAngel]

Oh, btw I was doing the 7 day treatment then do the 20% water change then maybe run carbon for a few days, take the carbon out and do the treatment for the 2nd dose of 7 days. What do you guys think about that? Or should I just do the water change and add the 2nd dose like the directions say.

You do not need to run any carbon; start the second dosing after the water change. You may need a third too.

 

[laurie64]

Thanks, I have never used quinine sulfate before. I have not seen any new spots or any for that matter, but I think that the scribble is a bit restless and will dose again. I have to ask, with this drug and the fact that it works pretty quickly, why is copper still the favorite med? I feel much better knowing that the possibility of copper poisioning even when careful, is out of the picture.

 

[b0bab0ey]

Thanks, I have never used quinine sulfate before. I have not seen any new spots or any for that matter, but I think that the scribble is a bit restless and will dose again. I have to ask, with this drug and the fact that it works pretty quickly, why is copper still the favorite med? I feel much better knowing that the possibility of copper poisioning even when careful, is out of the picture.

I think because you can't just walk into any LFS and buy QS. Most hobbyists I know don't maintain a fish medicine cabinet. They wait until disaster strikes, run to a LFS, tell an employee all their fish have "white dots" and walk out with a bottle of copper. Now, I think the "experts" are still shunning CP and QS because there's no test kit. And it's a valid point. But I have read up a lot on both since beginning this thread and am now very confident they work as advertised. So long as you're careful to dose the proper amounts and take certain precautions to avoid breaking the medication(s) down.

I never say never, but I sure hope my copper days are done. If I can't ever get CP for some reason, I'll try my hand at QS before I go back to copper. I'm just not as confident that QS is as gentle on the fish as CP is. With CP, I see hardly any side effects. The only fish to date that I have lost while treating with CP is 2 Sixline Wrasses, and I've treated well over 15 fish by now. Angels, Tangs, Butterflies, Anthias, Basslets, Clownfish... even a Moorish Idol and an Achilles for a friend. And I'm still not 100% sure whether or not the CP had anything to with the wrasses' demise.

 

[laurie64]

I am interested in what kind of side effects you have seen. All the fish in my 75 gal at are new. When I got them they really only picked at food. Now after quinine they have started to eat like pigs. I have not noticed my fish being treated to be acting any differently. I am super glad that you started this post.
Oh other thing. CP and QS, are these not considered antiobotics? If so there is never going to be a test for them. Sorry typing is choppy, I'm on my cell.

 

[b0bab0ey]

I am interested in what kind of side effects you have seen. All the fish in my 75 gal at are new. When I got them they really only picked at food. Now after quinine they have started to eat like pigs. I have not noticed my fish being treated to be acting any differently. I am super glad that you started this post.
Oh other thing. CP and QS, are these not considered antiobotics? If so there is never going to be a test for them. Sorry typing is choppy, I'm on my cell.

Well, as mentioned in a previous post, I did lose two Sixline Wrasses while treating with CP. I can't say for certain if their deaths were a direct result of the CP treatment, but in both cases they just stopped eating and withered away. They would approach food as if they were going to eat but wouldn't actually do it. All the other fish I have treated were fine. The only noticeable side effects were lethargy, and I guess slight appetite suppression at times. But it's hard to say if that was actually because of the CP or the fact that I kept them in a lights out environment during treatment, to avoid breaking down the medication.

CP (and I think QS) are both antimalarial drugs. I kinda doubt there will ever be a test kit. But that doesn't stop hobbyists from treating their fish with Prazipro, Formalin, antibiotics, etc. Copper is the only "fish med" I am aware of that you can test with a test kit.

 

[laurie64]

Not being able to test how much is actually in the water does not bother me at all. All of the fish are doing great, have lost all signs of ich and who could ask for more. That was a great point about copper being the only fish med that has a test. Formalin is just as toxic and many people still use it. Well I am happy with the results that I have had using the quinine sulfate. I followed the directions and the product worked as stated.

Thanks for sharing......