My lighting options... pros and cons

[jcjrogers]

I'm getting back into the hobby after a 14-15 year hiatus. My most advanced lighting back then was a hanging retro reflector with halides and PC actinics over a 75 gal tank. I realize that everybody touts what they own but after a good bit of reading and then throwing a few darts, I've come up with a few options for the 5'x2'x22" tank I'm planning. I want something fairly bullet proof, but other than a wall of T5s, that probably doesn't exist. I like the adjustability of LEDs... ramping up and down, clouds, moonlight, heck even lightening. I also like the shimmer I got with my old halides as it adds realism and is likely beneficial to the corals. However, LEDs have problems with shadowing and spread, not to mention they require the user to adjust intensity and spectrum.

This tank will start as mixed but will likely evolve into a SPS dominant tank. I've sort of narrowed my list down to three options if spending $2k including mounting: 1) 3 Hydra 52 HDs, 2) 2 Kessil AP700s, or 3) a 48" ATI 4x54w + 3 LED Hybrid fixture. I figure the Hydras would have the least amount of shading and the greatest spread as I would probably mount front to back. I could also probably start with 2 and save some bucks until I was ready to add the third. However, they would likely be the least bullet proof and with three fixtures, a little too much intensity could easily kill corals. The AP700s would likely be the most bullet proof of the pure LED options and according to the BRS videos, would have a good spread and shimmer. However, I've read where the software and wifi connectivity isn't good. The ATI Hybrid is likely the most bullet proof of the three options also with the greatest spread/least shadowing. However, it adds heat to the mix, has to be hung from the ceiling from what I can tell (I would rather not hang my lighting from the ceiling), and I've read about ballast problems. Obviously T5s have to be replaced, which adds maintenance and ongoing costs.

These are some of the pros/cons I've come up with and would appreciate some shared thoughts.

 

[teddyzaper]

If you don't mind swapping bulbs the ATI will probably be the best performer.

Have you thought about radions? They are probably one of the best LEDs on the market.

I'd forget about the ap700, if you wanted to go similar to that route, 4 kessil 360we would work better.

 

[burton14e7]

What made you decide the Hydra 52 HDs over the Radion xr30 G4 pro?

For me it's between the ap700 and the G4s and I think I'm going with the Radion. When they only had the G3 out I was going to go ap700.

 

[rtparty]

Not to add another wrench but a Giesemann MH/T5 fixture would be awesome as well.

After years and years of swapping around between T5s, LEDs and a hybrid of the two, I'm going back to what I know works and is the gold standard for lighting.

Out of your three choices though I'd go with the ATI Hybrid. A couple Radions and some T5s would be really nice as well

 

[jcjrogers]

What made you decide the Hydra 52 HDs over the Radion xr30 G4 pro?

The Hydra 52 HDs were selected because I can get 3 fixtures mounted for the same price as two AP 700s. I also figured that with 12 lights instead of 4, the spread and lack of shadowing would have to be as good if not better than two AP700s, no matter how wonderful those reflectors are. The Radion xr30 G4 pros weren't on my list because right or wrong, I figured they were similar to the Kessils, maybe $50 - $75 cheaper after mounting and Reeflink, but I hadn't heard a lot of specifics except several folks claim that Radions are the best while others claim Kessils are the best. That said, I'm certainly open to Radions.

 

[jcjrogers]

Not to add another wrench but a Giesemann MH/T5 fixture would be awesome as well.

After years and years of swapping around between T5s, LEDs and a hybrid of the two, I'm going back to what I know works and is the gold standard for lighting.

Out of your three choices though I'd go with the ATI Hybrid. A couple Radions and some T5s would be really nice as well

The Giesemann would be nice, but I want to draw the line somewhere on price, and there appear to be problems with the mounting legs, so I'm back to hanging. They look nice, but I'm not sure what the extra money would get me over the ATI hybrid.

What do you consider "gold standard"? MHs and T5s?

 

[rtparty]

The Giesemann would be nice, but I want to draw the line somewhere on price, and there appear to be problems with the mounting legs, so I'm back to hanging. They look nice, but I'm not sure what the extra money would get me over the ATI hybrid.

What do you consider "gold standard"? MHs and T5s?

What is your budget?

A couple conduit pipes attached to the back of the stand is an easy hanging solution. Or some shelf brackets attached to the wall behind the tank.

Yes, I consider MH/T5 the gold standard of lighting. It is what every LED manufacture is trying to copy.

The Gmann gives you halides over LEDs. There are cons to that but so many pros IMO. I had the ATI Hybrid over my old tank. Good light for sure but not MH/T5 good. Again, that's my opinion after having every light source over my tanks at some point. The new LEDs have come a long way but just aren't for me. I can always pick out an LED lit tank

 

[zsuman101]

i have had both kessil and radions, i prefer the shimmer of the kessils ... but radions are superior as ime on my reefs, btw kessil or radion, you still need t5s imo. so if you want one source its t5 only, otherwise its mh/t5 or led/t5. good luck n stuff zsu

 

[jcjrogers]

I really want my lighting budget to be $2k, mounting and all. I guess with Radions or Kessils, I could always start with 2 fixtures and add a 3rd later if I so desired.

Regarding MH/T5 combos, I'm open minded. Heck, they are about half the cost, and that's what I've used in the past (substitute T5s for PCs) with great results. I never had to worry about acclimation other than starting corals at the bottom of the tank and then moving them up, but I did have to deal with heat. My old setup had the tank sitting in a closet under my staircase with the front of the tank open into the living room. Because the tank was in a closet, I could load the closet with fans and had a well vented door, which I could keep open when it really got warm. I would be giving up all the wiz-bang stuff with LEDs but that is somewhat secondary. My biggest issue is heat. I don't want to fool with a chiller, and this tank will be in an open room so I can't mount fans all over the place. Is there a particular fixture known for doing a good job of dispelling heat (obviously has to include fans)? Also, dimming capabilities for the T5s would be nice.

 

[GoVols]

I really want my lighting budget to be $2k, mounting and all. I guess with Radions or Kessils, I could always start with 2 fixtures and add a 3rd later if I so desired.

Regarding MH/T5 combos, I'm open minded. Heck, they are about half the cost, and that's what I've used in the past (substitute T5s for PCs) with great results. I never had to worry about acclimation other than starting corals at the bottom of the tank and then moving them up, but I did have to deal with heat. My old setup had the tank sitting in a closet under my staircase with the front of the tank open into the living room. Because the tank was in a closet, I could load the closet with fans and had a well vented door, which I could keep open when it really got warm. I would be giving up all the wiz-bang stuff with LEDs but that is somewhat secondary. My biggest issue is heat. I don't want to fool with a chiller, and this tank will be in an open room so I can't mount fans all over the place. Is there a particular fixture known for doing a good job of dispelling heat (obviously has to include fans)? Also, dimming capabilities for the T5s would be nice.

Well after 14 years out of the hobby your not gonna beat your old MH/T5 Combo for Coral full wide growth and coloration.
Out of The three I'd Go with ATI T5/Led Hybird and I am running a hybird lighting system too.

As far as led shimmer goes it being found to be nice for your eyes but burns colors.

Please watch this great detailed video from BRS. Philip's is getting in the Led reef hobby and still have so work but their well on their way to finally perfecting led lighting for the reef hobby.

http://www.bulkreefsupply.com/video...ps-coral-care-leds-claims-are-they-realistic/

Right now it really takes way more led fixtures running at lower outputs to accomplish the spread your really need than "stated by manufactures". Unless your running a nano.

 

[burton14e7]

I really liked that phillips video when I watched it. Very interesting design.

 

[hart24601]

With only 22" deep I would go with hydra 26's and just have more fixtures for less hot spots. I only recommend 52's when needing that extra punch for deep tanks, otherwise for only a bit more money I like 2 26's over 1 52 - can have better spread and 2 26's are more powerful than 1 52 so AI told me. Even 5 26's staggered over that 2ft width would be awesome. Here is my 120 with 5 26s, I always feel like I should show my tank when I give advise, otherwise how would you know if it's any good? Lots of ppl on forums give a ton of advise but how do you know if it's the advise you want, maybe they have different goals than you? If you don't like my tank then don't take my advise!!!

 

[GoVols]

With only 22" deep I would go with hydra 26's and just have more fixtures for less hot spots. I only recommend 52's when needing that extra punch for deep tanks, otherwise for only a bit more money I like 2 26's over 1 52 - can have better spread and 2 26's are more powerful than 1 52 so AI told me. Even 5 26's staggered over that 2ft width would be awesome. Here is my 120 with 5 26s, I always feel like I should show my tank when I give advise, otherwise how would you know if it's any good? Lots of ppl on forums give a ton of advise but how do you know if it's the advise you want, maybe they have different goals than you? If you don't like my tank then don't take my advise!!!

Beautiful reef!!!!!!!!!

I bet the manufacture would suggest 2 Fixtures would get the job done.

Not so, that's 5 fixtures to get the correct spread. 5 units x $350 each = $1,750

To my point it takes a lot more units to get the correct led spread.

I don't have an led problem but the average reefer is not going to spend that kind of money and the manufacture's and sellers know it.

Wonderful reef though!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[hart24601]

Beautiful reef!!!!!!!!!

I bet the manufacture would suggest 2 Fixtures would get the job done.

Not so, that's 5 fixtures to get the correct spread. 5 units x $350 each = $1,750

To my point it takes a lot more units to get the correct led spread.

I don't have an led problem but the average reefer is not going to spend that kind of money and the manufacture's and sellers know it.

Wonderful reef though!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Thanks! Yep it does take a lot. I don't know if less would have done it or not though. I originally started with 3 and just added the 4th cause why not but then won the 5th one because I won an acro growout contest. Funny tho the acro contest I beat LEDs, T5, halides and combo fixtures. Growth is more about feeding, but that's a discussion for another thread, haha.

 

[jcjrogers]

I've watched a lot of the BRS stuff but hadn't seen that video until now. The more I watch, read, and see peoples' personal experiences, the more I'm shying away from an all LED option. It seems the technology is really in its infancy, and my $2,000 worth of LED lighting might become expensive refugium lighting in the near future if I really want to keep up. The LED/T5 combo would give me some high-tech adjustment options, while giving me the spread and tried-and-true effectiveness of T5s. However, for almost $1,000 less I could go with a MH/T5 combo and have low-tech adjustments (manage on/off for each bulb) and a proven technology for coral health and growth... I would just have to manage the heat, which might not be as difficult as I think.

 

[hart24601]

You have to go with what you like! But no... 2 grand over your tank will not be refugium lighting if LED....

LED is plenty proven and easy IMO, it gets blamed for far more problems that are not light related. But they are just lighting, not magic. LED/T5 is solid as are T5/MH, none of it's a really big deal unless someone is really running junk quality stuff. If you feel better with MH than go for it! Just keep the tank stable, keep the big 3 in range, aim for 1ppm nitrate and you will have success with any light type.

Forums like most internet areas can get plenty contentious and nasty, even with reef stuff, haha. Heck I remember when huge fights would break out when 20K MH came out with people saying anything that blue would kill coral and blind fish (before that there was hatred of 12k vs 6.5k) - then there were the epic T5 battles....

I do encourage you to look at peoples tanks and if you see one you like ask what they think. Too much info is just passed on second hand I think.

 

[ktownhero]

I've watched a lot of the BRS stuff but hadn't seen that video until now. The more I watch, read, and see peoples' personal experiences, the more I'm shying away from an all LED option. It seems the technology is really in its infancy, and my $2,000 worth of LED lighting might become expensive refugium lighting in the near future if I really want to keep up. The LED/T5 combo would give me some high-tech adjustment options, while giving me the spread and tried-and-true effectiveness of T5s. However, for almost $1,000 less I could go with a MH/T5 combo and have low-tech adjustments (manage on/off for each bulb) and a proven technology for coral health and growth... I would just have to manage the heat, which might not be as difficult as I think.

LEDs aren't even remotely in their infancy... If you don't feel comfortable with LED-only, then I'd go with a T5/LED hybrid. Metal Halide is such an outdated technology any more. Sure, it works, but is there any real advantage to it that outweigh it's huge cons? Bulbs are expensive, they use a ton of energy and can heat up a small room.

BRS chose AP700s + T5 for the BRS160.

 

[rtparty]

LEDs aren't even remotely in their infancy... If you don't feel comfortable with LED-only, then I'd go with a T5/LED hybrid. Metal Halide is such an outdated technology any more. Sure, it works, but is there any real advantage to it that outweigh it's huge cons? Bulbs are expensive, they use a ton of energy and can heat up a small room.

BRS chose AP700s + T5 for the BRS160.

This isn't the thread for a full blown discussion but here goes:

BRS has admitted that MH/T5 is still the BEST lighting in their opinion. The 160 is basically a big experiment tank for them. They wanted to try LEDs and eventually added T5s.

I would say LEDs are certainly in their infancy still. Every couple months someone makes a "groundbreaking" improvement over the previous generation. To this day, I've not seen a single LED fixture that can compare to a good MH or T5 setup. The Philips has supposedly been the closest and testing backed that up.

Spectrums and intensities are still being messed with when it comes to LEDs. With a MH you put it over the tank, turn it on and don't worry about lighting any longer. Yes, MH has its cons. It also has serious pros.

With that said, LEDs do work. Plenty of people have shown that. I think they are a fantastic choice for some applications. For others, not so much. Same can be said for every single lighting source in our hobby.

I've ran them all over the years. I've visited plenty of tanks that use all of them. Lighting is mostly personal preference and needs of the tank/individual. If someone can run halides, they definitely should IMO. If they have serious heat and electricity (cost) issues, they should go LEDs.

 

[GoVols]

Thanks! Yep it does take a lot. I don't know if less would have done it or not though. I originally started with 3 and just added the 4th cause why not but then won the 5th one because I won an acro growout contest. Funny tho the acro contest I beat LEDs, T5, halides and combo fixtures. Growth is more about feeding, but that's a discussion for another thread, haha.

I don't think you need less.

If I went full led today. I'd use you placement a amount of fixtures as a guide. When you nail it, you nail it --- and --- YOU NAILED IT!

Looks like perfection to me.

 

[GoVols]

@jcjrogers,
Welcome back to the hobby after 14 years.

hart24601 reef proves leds can do the job but it takes a lot to get a T5 spread.

It's saddens me because it's taken this long for some one like Philip's to jump into led reef lighting! On the bright side Philip's makes leds and could possibly research and MAKE a single led to the "reef color needed", instead of mixing different led colors to hit a single color.

When I watched this video I wasn't upset but thought "finally" someone gets the issues with led single point (Puck) light sources and I'll keep my hybird system for now.

There's nothing wrong with any way you want to go. I always loved MH and T5s. The T5 give me choice in color per bulb.

If you want a successful all Led today then hart24601's got it down!

With Philip's jumping in the game I'm going to hold off. That is a monster corporation and I think they and only they are on it's infancy to changing the led game.

Companies like EcoTech have had their chance for almost a decade and still don't get it...

Just be sure to enjoy your new reef and pick the lights you want with the education you have now and over the coming days.

Regards, GoVols