My Prized Muelleri Butterflyfish has bumps all over body

[tylersarah]

I have good news to share. I thought the hawkfish and Muelleri were goners, but to my surprise this morning the panting has subsided and the Muelleri even ate. It seems to me the Prazipro is working!

First thing first, I detected some ammonia today .25-.5 in the tank with more fish and .25 in the Muelleri's tank. The tanks are also a bit cloudy - I'm thinking that's from the Prazipro? Or dead flukes? Let it be dead flukes!

Anyway, I don't want to do a w/c and dilute my actively working prazipro so I'm going to dose Amquel (regular Amquel, not the Plus) to the tank to remove the ammonia, does anyone think this is a bad idea?

 

[tylersarah]

Venustus angels are pretty fish, such a vivid blue. I have qt gone wrong stories myself, nothing I want to reiterate.

I dosed the Amquel with the Prazipro after reading a bit more - I don't want to screw this up after coming this far!

 

[tylersarah]

For anyone jumping in that doesn't want to read all this, here's the summary:

-Few weeks ago fairy wrasse mysteriously died in tank, no symptoms.
-One week ago I noticed beak to tail sand like spots on the Muelleri and assumed ich (I had introduced was snails)
-6 days ago I tore the reef apart and put all fish in hypo qt. The clowns were seemingly unaffected while the hawkfish, tomini tang and starry blenny were breathing rapidly, but no other visible symptoms. Tested ammonia, pH, salinity, temp, alk, mg, nitrite...nothing critical, did w/c anyway.
-4 days ago the tang died
-yesterday the blenny died and the Muelleri (who's in another tank and currently spotless) began breathing rapidly and stopped eating. In response I dosed Prazipro and went to bed and found the fish doing well in the morning -the panting had subsided and the Muelleri ate breakfast.

The mystery:
Overtime I became almost certain trace amounts of ammonia/nitrite/low pH were not causing my fish to breathe heavily and die and that it was something else. And whatever that is, I think flukes, the Prazipro is riding of it. Now, what about the initial spots all over the Muelleri? Do you think that was ich and flukes was secondary or was the whole thing flukes?

My plan: on day 5 of Prazipro, do a 25% w/c on both tanks and then another dose of Prazi. Now, I'm assuming because the fish showed great improvement with the treatment I have flukes, but from snails?

 

[caribfan]

First off, Great news on the condition of the fish turning around!

I am doubtful that the white spots you saw on the Muelleri were flukes. Flukes are generally very difficult to spot, and are almost never visible in a photo without great photography.

I had an ich outbreak in my tank after 2 years of very regimented quarantining of all new tank mates with Cupramine. The cause? The trigger that had been there for 3 years and was never treated with cupramine.

In my experience, it's possible for parasites to exist in an aquarium unseen for long periods of time if the condition are optimal. All it takes is one slip up, maybe it's a drop in pH or a stint of high nitrates from me getting lazy on my water changes or even the addition of an aggressive new fish, and boom, a parasite shows up.

Have you changed any of the parameters, outside of using the Amquel? S.G. the same, increased?

One other thing, if you are killing mass numbers of flukes, you should see the little buggers on the bottom of the tank. They would look like a small transparent grain of rice.

I'm really glad to hear things are turning around. I think your current plan is a good one, however I would add a 4 week treatment with cupramine at the completion of the prazi treatments.

 

[tylersarah]

First off, Great news on the condition of the fish turning around!

Thanks! It made my day to see them doing better.

In my experience, it's possible for parasites to exist in an aquarium unseen for long periods of time if the condition are optimal. All it takes is one slip up, maybe it's a drop in pH or a stint of high nitrates from me getting lazy on my water changes or even the addition of an aggressive new fish, and boom, a parasite shows up.

Then it (ich, flukes +) must have been lingering til something was off and the Muelleri signaled it by breaking out in bumps.

Have you changed any of the parameters, outside of using the Amquel? S.G. the same, increased?

All has remained the same except some tinkering with baking soda & Mg to help stabilize pH - which is still 7.7

One other thing, if you are killing mass numbers of flukes, you should see the little buggers on the bottom of the tank. They would look like a small transparent grain of rice.

I found a bit of leftover sand and some poop I need to turkey baste out of there, but no positive id on clear rice grains. The Muelleri has a new white fleshy bump on his side that is much larger than the sand grains, like lympho or maybe from something falling off of him - I'll keep an eye on it.

I'm really glad to hear things are turning around. I think your current plan is a good one, however I would add a 4 week treatment with cupramine at the completion of the prazi treatments.

For the ich?

 

[Dapg8gt]

Have you thought of using Chloroquine phosphate. Been around for a long time but starting to gain popularity again.. Awesome med and not harsh like copper.

Look it up if you haven't. I have about 100g on hand to deal with any issues that may arrive with my new tank on the horizon. I know the feeling of having fish for so long time my oldest are going on 13 and I will do any thing for these run of the mill clowns =). Good luck with the little swimmers and great job on the informative thread.

 

[tylersarah]

Have you thought of using Chloroquine phosphate. Been around for a long time but starting to gain popularity again.. Awesome med and not harsh like copper.

Look it up if you haven't. I have about 100g on hand to deal with any issues that may arrive with my new tank on the horizon. I know the feeling of having fish for so long time my oldest are going on 13 and I will do any thing for these run of the mill clowns =). Good luck with the little swimmers and great job on the informative thread.

Yes, I was reading on it yesterday. I'd have to find a source and do something about the tank being under a basement window, maybe build a canopy over it.

 

[tylersarah]

I'd have to find a source and do something about the tank being under a basement window, maybe build a canopy over it.

I suppose covering the windows would be the easy approach, although the neighbors probably question the blue hues of light shining already.

 

[tylersarah]

Here's Ziggy today scrounging for food remnants:

The tank is a bit cloudy, I think from the Prazipro.

I took this picture to share the fleshy white area that is developing on his body (those white specs below his tail aren't on him, it's the picture). I don't feel it's anything life threatening, but wondering if it helps indicate what type of parasite is on him or leaving him? Or is it a secondary issue?

Currently, I'm battling ammonia with water changes (gave up on the Amquel) and I'm dosing an adjusted amount of Prazi with the w/c. I added some Bio Spira to help as well. Fish are all active except the hawkfish, but he spent 5 days panting, so I think he will take a bit longer to start eating.

 

[tylersarah]

Also, the fleshy white spot protrudes from his body, it has doubled in size since yesterday.

 

[caribfan]

Glad to hear he's eating. Ammonia is a straight PITA. Any chance you can get some cultured media from the LFS and put it in big HOB style power filter. I've done that in the past with some success. If you were closer, i'd just give you some cultured bioballs. I've also made a Wet/dry out of a bucket using some cultured biomedia.

I can't really tell regarding the white spot. Does it look like lympho?

 

[tylersarah]

Glad to hear he's eating. Ammonia is a straight PITA. Any chance you can get some cultured media from the LFS and put it in big HOB style power filter. I've done that in the past with some success. If you were closer, i'd just give you some cultured bioballs. I've also made a Wet/dry out of a bucket using some cultured biomedia.

I can't really tell regarding the white spot. Does it look like lympho?

It is a PITA, I've been chasing aquarium problems 8 days straight - good thing I have a flexible job. The lfs gave me some cultured media and it worked fine until the prazi dose, so onto water changes and I've read this Bio Spira stuff works well, I'll see tomorrow.

The white spot does look like lympho, but larger than what I'm used to. I thought it may be something exciting like an encrusting cyst that exploded to reveal what was going on with my fish - no?

 

[caribfan]

Hmm, I'm not sure about the encrusting eploding cyst...although it sounds really cool/gross :lolspin:

I'm sure I'm not telling you anything you don't know, but the long term success of these fish is going to hinge on you setting up something to handle the ammonia.

Are you still just using the sponge filters? Is there any chance of setting up a small wet dry for both the tanks? The flow doesn't need to be much. Bioballs are great for just this type of scenario.

I'm glad to hear the Muelleri is doing better. I'd be happier if we had a positive diagnosis on what exactly you are trying to treat. Truth be told, I'm not sure if its flukes, marine ich or lympho or everything wrapped up into one.

Maybe more pictures and a video...although if the condition of the fish is improving, it would lead me to believe it's flukes that have been causing the problem.

As for Cholorquine Phosphate, I've read some good articles on it, but never used it myself. I think its probably a better option than hypo, but as you well know, I'm a cupramine man myself.

I'd work on getting that biofilter cranking to make sure the fish aren't battling ammonia poisoning and some other parasite.

You've done a good job so far, keep up the good work!

 

[tylersarah]

Looks like a drunk taping fish...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gToRMCwdG80

(my first YouTube video)

I think the clowns are going to lay eggs back there, go figure. The hawkfish still won't eat, but he's the only survivor of the long-term heavy breathing (4 days). The Muelleri is begging for food, he twitches his head like that when he's hungry. I'm only giving him ~10 blackworms in the AM and two rice grain sized pieces of frozen seafood in the afternoon until the ammonia resides.

Currently, the ammonia test reads .25 which is less than yesterday. Still doing water changes and dosing adjusted amts of prazi, the sponge filters are there plus the seeded sponge from my sump and the seeded media from the lfs. Bio Spira is as far as I've ever gone with snake oil like products, but my lfs owner said it works, I trust him plus I've read good reviews. So, I'm going to wait it out and see which direction the ammonia travels and if it increases I'll look into a HOB with bio balls. Biggest problem is finding a place to plug them in, will have to route extension cords again :crazy1:

 

[tylersarah]

Onto Something...

Onto Something...

Got some fresh seeded media from the lfs today, hoping that helps rid of the ammonia and future nitrite.

I was chatting with an employee who services tanks and he said that a customer complained about his fish looking bloated and then one of them died (my fairy wrasse looked bloated off and on and mysteriously died a few weeks ago). Then all the customer's fish looked bad except a pair of clowns, that are still alive today, and the rest died within 24 hours (I lost 2 more fish before I treated Prazi and my clown pair are seemingly fine). When the employee was cleaning the tank he found hundreds of white worms and under a microscope they were identified as anchor worms.

This scenario is very similar to mine, I know the fish have worms, why the Muelleri broke out in Ich when the worms began attacking, I don't know. Today my hawkfish looks extremely bloated and breathing heavily again despite the Prazi in the tank. I think he's been and is full of worms, unfortunately, he won't eat so I can't feed any dewormer, but as for the rest of the fish I read about Seachem's products Metronidazole to treat internal parasites and Focus to help bind medication to fish food. I should give this a shot. Any thoughts?

 

[tylersarah]

The hawkfish didn't make it through the night, I woke with that feeling at 4 AM and checked on the fish, he wasn't doing well. I humanely put him down and did a post mortem freshwater dip to see if any worms appeared, they didn't so I can assume internal at this point. In June I posted about the hawk looking bloated and I think he's been carrying worms since. Here's a photo of his abdomen, I thought it might help indicate something if these symptoms mean anything other than severe bloat:

 

[tylersarah]

My theory for the clowns not being affected is that by behavior they don't contact the sand bed or rocks like the others, therefore, avoiding the parasites. Back in June I posted about the hawk and symptoms of bloat, later the wrasse showed signs of bloat (I thought I fed them too much). After the wrasse mysteriously died in the reef the other fish that touch the sand and rocks all showed heavy breathing symptoms (had been moved to QT by that time) and I lost 2 before the Prazipro took effect and the remaining fish resumed normal breathing.

The clown pair host the upper silicone corner of the tank and swim less than a foot away to grab a piece of food, then back to their corner. Or maybe clownfish have a natural defense or this parasite doesn't like their anatomy. Just a speculation, but possible.

Now there's 3 fish left, I had 7. Ziggy and Mr. & Mrs. Clown, losing these would cause me to reconsider this hobby. Even if they survive I do worry about them as internal hosts/carriers of these reprehensible parasites. All three will eat Seachem Metronidazole mixed with frozen seafood, I hope that is enough to remove any internal parasite.

In QT the clowns have been hosting the bottom of the tank. Suddenly, Mrs Clown has been severely harassing Mr. Clown to the point he's trying to hide anywhere to get away. I've seen their courting dance and this isn't it. I think he's infected and she's trying to get him away.

 

[tylersarah]

And I can't find a distinct answer as to without a fish host, will parasites die in the reef? The reef will be fallow for 12 weeks to kill the probable Ich that the Muelleri exposed, but is that long enough for parasitic worms?

 

[tylersarah]

Mrs. Clown continues to attack and yet the male will try and be as close as possible to their "home" without being detected by her. We tried putting up barriers to keep the two apart and finally the male is in a large net in the tank. He's finding comfort there and swimming around a bit, he has fin damage and from what I've seen from the others, he likely won't live through today unless the parasites are only on his gills, in that case the Prazi will give him a chance.

 

[tylersarah]

This is the most terrible thing I've ever witnessed with fish. The clowns have been part of the family for 9 years, even my mom broke into tears when I called and told her the news.