The Grim Reefer
Ready for some NOBALL!!!
If you look at a SE and DE there is actually the second glass tube around the SE. As I remember the quartz tube doesn't filter UV.
My T5 55g tank....and coral lightening
- Thread starter dvanacker
- Start date
BubbleMonkeyIII
New member
Yea grim thats probably right, im no halide expert at all, but that means however if what you say is true, that Indeed SE lights DO create UV, its just filtered through TWO BULB Housings then vs one with the HQI? So its the dual housing on the SE that eliminates the need for secondary UV filter?
Im not sure which is the culpret in coral coloration...food/nutrients vs frequency of light, I tend to think its a bit of both. But im leaning toward light as the MAIN influence at this point. Just wondering what is MISSING with T5s that might cause this.. Many T5 have similar spectrum peaks etc.. in the normal range..
What I think is being missed is the UNUSUAL frequencies and UV light that Halides might be producing that T5s (normally) wont produce. AGain this is where that Helios idea with the UV and INF experiment is very interesting. That light might be worth a try to test out.
What I might do is superimpose all the normal T5 lights most of us use over the Frequency graph of ONE 20k halide, to see how they compare.. See where there are spikes of Halide NM, and maybe where the T5 doesnt, might be the clue to the missing NM range we have when using T5s.
Be interesting as I said earlier, if someone Using Halides went all T5 changing out the Halides for T5s.. and before the change was made, they must have good growth and coloration with HALIDES.. Maybe someone out there has done exactly this.. IF so chime in what your findings were I think this would be interesting to hear.
As I said thats the REAL test if everything else is kept constant using the SAME tank, husbandry and feeding etc etc... and in a Tank where only the lights have changed in a big way, kinda eliminates the nutrients as the culpret dont you guys think? Though the tank parameters would have to be checked and rechecked before and after to make sure there is no other error that could have caused the change after the T5s were installed. Simple but effective test.
Be nice if some of you who posted months ago about changes you planned on making (raising lights, different lights, moving corals etc etc) would come back in and give us your experiences and what worked and didnt for you. THANKS!
Im not sure which is the culpret in coral coloration...food/nutrients vs frequency of light, I tend to think its a bit of both. But im leaning toward light as the MAIN influence at this point. Just wondering what is MISSING with T5s that might cause this.. Many T5 have similar spectrum peaks etc.. in the normal range..
What I think is being missed is the UNUSUAL frequencies and UV light that Halides might be producing that T5s (normally) wont produce. AGain this is where that Helios idea with the UV and INF experiment is very interesting. That light might be worth a try to test out.
What I might do is superimpose all the normal T5 lights most of us use over the Frequency graph of ONE 20k halide, to see how they compare.. See where there are spikes of Halide NM, and maybe where the T5 doesnt, might be the clue to the missing NM range we have when using T5s.
Be interesting as I said earlier, if someone Using Halides went all T5 changing out the Halides for T5s.. and before the change was made, they must have good growth and coloration with HALIDES.. Maybe someone out there has done exactly this.. IF so chime in what your findings were I think this would be interesting to hear.
As I said thats the REAL test if everything else is kept constant using the SAME tank, husbandry and feeding etc etc... and in a Tank where only the lights have changed in a big way, kinda eliminates the nutrients as the culpret dont you guys think? Though the tank parameters would have to be checked and rechecked before and after to make sure there is no other error that could have caused the change after the T5s were installed. Simple but effective test.
Be nice if some of you who posted months ago about changes you planned on making (raising lights, different lights, moving corals etc etc) would come back in and give us your experiences and what worked and didnt for you. THANKS!
dvanacker
DID I SOUNDS SMRT??
Wow...this thread has really turned into a monster.
My input is...my color is better. What I have done?? Well I got rid of my SSB and went barebottom. Added more fish. Feed more. And replaced an aquablue with super actinic and cut photoperiod a bit.
Also I must say being new to SPS at the time I didnt realize that placement of corals was so crucial.
My input is...my color is better. What I have done?? Well I got rid of my SSB and went barebottom. Added more fish. Feed more. And replaced an aquablue with super actinic and cut photoperiod a bit.
Also I must say being new to SPS at the time I didnt realize that placement of corals was so crucial.
BubbleMonkeyIII
New member
Hey everyone I think I have made a breakthrough in the discovery about some missing UVB wavelengths when Using T5 lighting compared to Halide Lighting. Basically I had posted a theory above that the possibility that Halides producing UVB in the nm ranges below 400nm might be the reason they are coloring up our SPS corals better. Especially deeper colors like Greens and Dark Blues. After reading an article on fluoresence and nm ranges needed to "Excite" these colors, I am more convinced than ever that I am on the right track with this theory.
Thanks to Grim providing some great Halide graphs, and a link provided by Hahn at Advanced Aquarist (Dana Riddle Article) I think I have now been able to piece together with more solid scientific evidence, a theory which I think is important, and wanted to share with you all. If the AdV AQ article is correct below, it only supports my theory about UVB and T5s and their link to coral coloration.
If the following on the link below, is actually correct information, It explains why SPS colors may INDEED be more "pastel/lighter" when running T5s compared to Halides. Take a look at the Ideal EXCITE nm ranges that the blue/green/violets require to fluoresce found in the tables on the link below. You will see MANY SPS "EXCITE" at levels at and below 400nm. While they can "EMIT" at higher nm ranges, the lower UVB levels (found in the halide graphs) are needed to stimulate the color/pigment fluorescence. Unfortunately NONE (bar the helios) of our T5s produce the any UVB in these ranges.
This coloration article is found here
http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2006/9/aafeature
And as grim pointed out the ONLY bulb we know of at this point is the Helios Super Blue 03. Which can be found here (better hurry up) for 10$
And he mentioned they have a 48" version now that will fit standard fixtures (which is good) Only thing I would like to see is the Super blue 03 peak at 420nm so its more violet and pure 03. Grim also describes the look of this bulb in action.
http://www.customaquatic.com/customaquatic/newproducts.asp?offset=45
You can see as this theory/ information evolves at the following link
http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=974588&perpage=25&pagenumber=2
Thanks to Grim providing some great Halide graphs, and a link provided by Hahn at Advanced Aquarist (Dana Riddle Article) I think I have now been able to piece together with more solid scientific evidence, a theory which I think is important, and wanted to share with you all. If the AdV AQ article is correct below, it only supports my theory about UVB and T5s and their link to coral coloration.
If the following on the link below, is actually correct information, It explains why SPS colors may INDEED be more "pastel/lighter" when running T5s compared to Halides. Take a look at the Ideal EXCITE nm ranges that the blue/green/violets require to fluoresce found in the tables on the link below. You will see MANY SPS "EXCITE" at levels at and below 400nm. While they can "EMIT" at higher nm ranges, the lower UVB levels (found in the halide graphs) are needed to stimulate the color/pigment fluorescence. Unfortunately NONE (bar the helios) of our T5s produce the any UVB in these ranges.
This coloration article is found here
http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2006/9/aafeature
And as grim pointed out the ONLY bulb we know of at this point is the Helios Super Blue 03. Which can be found here (better hurry up) for 10$
And he mentioned they have a 48" version now that will fit standard fixtures (which is good) Only thing I would like to see is the Super blue 03 peak at 420nm so its more violet and pure 03. Grim also describes the look of this bulb in action.http://www.customaquatic.com/customaquatic/newproducts.asp?offset=45
You can see as this theory/ information evolves at the following link
http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=974588&perpage=25&pagenumber=2
dvanacker
DID I SOUNDS SMRT??
This means nothing to me. Explain why a lot of people have great coloration with T5's as well as some people who experience lightening then. If this was the case all T5 users would be experiencing poor colour when that is not the case.
Also like I pointed out...this is my Thread. My corals are looking much better and quit colorful at this point. I stated what I did to get to this point....if you want to ignor that go a head.
Sheesh. You know some people with T5's complain about color and everybody automatically thinks something is wrong with the lighting. When someone with MH complains they look at ALL the different possibilites.
Also like I pointed out...this is my Thread. My corals are looking much better and quit colorful at this point. I stated what I did to get to this point....if you want to ignor that go a head.
Sheesh. You know some people with T5's complain about color and everybody automatically thinks something is wrong with the lighting. When someone with MH complains they look at ALL the different possibilites.
BubbleMonkeyIII
New member
I need to correct something i have been posting in ERROR, My theory is actually suggesting we need more UVA, NOT UVB in our T5 spectrums. UVA is the 400-320nm range. UVB is lower at 320-290nm out of the spectrum our corals need to "excite"
Ok so I got that out of the way, I apologize for the confusion.. So its UVA we need at or below 400nm-320nm for proper excitation of our Blue/Green/violet SPS corals.
With that said, look at the amount of UVA in the Gman "Actinic Pure" Bulb which was provided to me by user Achtung, from gman site found here.
http://www.giesemann.de/79,2,,.html
"Actinic pure is the latest of the latest T5 tubes.It is not as blue as the Actinic Plus and has a pure actinic sprectrum for the ultimate in fluorescence from your corals."
If this is correct spec graph then we need to add the Gman 03 to the list of bulbs that produces quiet SIGNIFICANTLY into the UVA spectrum, which if my theory is correct, would EXCITE colors in the blue/green/violet color range (a good thing)
Take notice the UVA ranges are much higher with the gman spec graph than the RGeek gman pure 03 graph on the "pure" bulb which I got from them.
Gman site for gman pure
Rgeek site for gman pure
I wonder if that bulb on gmans site, is different than the one I already have on my tank? Its about 8 mos old got it from ReefGeek... If its the same then im ALREADY getting some good UVA according to Gman site graph you provided there. Which is cool by me.
This is the one I have already on my tank found here:
http://www.reefgeek.com/products/categories/lighting/104041.html
The spec graphs on Geek look different than the ones on the Giesman site? I wonder if this is Indeed a NEW Version or DIFFERENT Bulb than the ReefGeek version? Maybe a new upgrade? Im hoping it is.
Also looking at the Spec Graph for the one you listed, it looks much closer to the halide than any bulb I have seen yet even that Helios if it is accurate which I assume it is. I Wonder what the rest of the UVA spectrum looks like for that bulb.. they kinda end it at 350nm and dont go below that. I figure that has to be some more residual down to the 320 if the levels are that high at 350? But if its a new one, thats very interesting they included UVA down to the 350 range. I think its going to make a difference in coloration, I really do.
In first thread I listed in my post above, we compare the UVL and the Gman bulbs 03 Bulbs. I have found the Gman bulbs are the more violet of the two 03s. I have been running a Gman Pure actinic for about 8mos. Not sure if this is the same bulb or not?
Giesman calls it the "Latest of the Latest T5 tubes", and they also call it "Actinic Pure" Maybe its the same one. IF so Geek has the WRONG spectral graph for this bulb, (click on the graph to view it) it has quite a bit more UVB on the Giesman Site, than they are showing at geek.
Ok so I got that out of the way, I apologize for the confusion.. So its UVA we need at or below 400nm-320nm for proper excitation of our Blue/Green/violet SPS corals.
With that said, look at the amount of UVA in the Gman "Actinic Pure" Bulb which was provided to me by user Achtung, from gman site found here.
http://www.giesemann.de/79,2,,.html
"Actinic pure is the latest of the latest T5 tubes.It is not as blue as the Actinic Plus and has a pure actinic sprectrum for the ultimate in fluorescence from your corals."
If this is correct spec graph then we need to add the Gman 03 to the list of bulbs that produces quiet SIGNIFICANTLY into the UVA spectrum, which if my theory is correct, would EXCITE colors in the blue/green/violet color range (a good thing)
Take notice the UVA ranges are much higher with the gman spec graph than the RGeek gman pure 03 graph on the "pure" bulb which I got from them.
Gman site for gman pure
Rgeek site for gman pure
I wonder if that bulb on gmans site, is different than the one I already have on my tank? Its about 8 mos old got it from ReefGeek... If its the same then im ALREADY getting some good UVA according to Gman site graph you provided there. Which is cool by me.
This is the one I have already on my tank found here:
http://www.reefgeek.com/products/categories/lighting/104041.html
The spec graphs on Geek look different than the ones on the Giesman site? I wonder if this is Indeed a NEW Version or DIFFERENT Bulb than the ReefGeek version? Maybe a new upgrade? Im hoping it is.
Also looking at the Spec Graph for the one you listed, it looks much closer to the halide than any bulb I have seen yet even that Helios if it is accurate which I assume it is. I Wonder what the rest of the UVA spectrum looks like for that bulb.. they kinda end it at 350nm and dont go below that. I figure that has to be some more residual down to the 320 if the levels are that high at 350? But if its a new one, thats very interesting they included UVA down to the 350 range. I think its going to make a difference in coloration, I really do.
In first thread I listed in my post above, we compare the UVL and the Gman bulbs 03 Bulbs. I have found the Gman bulbs are the more violet of the two 03s. I have been running a Gman Pure actinic for about 8mos. Not sure if this is the same bulb or not?
Giesman calls it the "Latest of the Latest T5 tubes", and they also call it "Actinic Pure" Maybe its the same one. IF so Geek has the WRONG spectral graph for this bulb, (click on the graph to view it) it has quite a bit more UVB on the Giesman Site, than they are showing at geek.
BubbleMonkeyIII
New member
Well like I said I dont and have never said, EVERYONE is getting poor colorization, some seem to be doing fine, there are some great T5 tanks out there. That's the reason I personally have gone all T5 vs Halides. (among other reaons (light bill too) But seems like there are many out there having some problems using them with colors lightening overall. And honestly I think those having problems are probably greater than those having success at this point, and the reasons for that can be ENDLESS. Im just trying to ELIMINATE the LACK of UVA in peoples T5 combinations from slowing them down on top of EVERYTHING else working against them. At least ONE factor could possibly be resolved if this UVA situation is a necessary item for colorization, people who are having problems could pay SPECIAL attention to the nm ranges of the Bulbs they buy and install. Thus POSSIBLY eliminating the LIGHTS nm range as the problem.
And I never said that the LIGHT spectrum is EVERYTHING, some say there is NO effect with spetrum, but I dont buy that either.. I tend to think its a COMBINATION of all the factors..
And, that said, there are MANY other factors which I agree effect coloration and have said so. Infact im testing some colorization powder which has the "Astaxanthin" in them to boost color colorization (as per my zoox post on page 13) I have actually seen some colorization, but unfortunately i cannot attribute this to SOLELY the powder as I also upgraded my lights, and started feeding Cyclopeeze in greater amounts (also contains reportedly large amounts of Astax.)
But to answer your question why some users get good results using T5s and others dont, First, we need to make sure we compare apples to apples when discussing lighting. And that takes some doing.
BRANDS There are so many mfg out there with different quality T5s and different spectrum peaks etc..and There seems to be, from my short study of just T5 03 lamps, that there can be, and ARE great differences in NM ranges with different "ACTINIC" bulbs, "pure 03" or otherwise esp in the critical UVC ranges from 400-320. So, to be fair and make an honset assessment, EVERYONE would need to be running the same BRANDS of lights to actually get a true comparison.
Spectrums/Combinations - Also with all the choices out there of spectrums in the Emitting ranges (above 400nm) everyone would have to have the same spectrums as well, not to mention the same COMBINATIONS of bulbs to give a good test.
Coral/Bulb Placement- One guy says put the corals at the top, others day further down, some say at the bottom, then move them up. Not to mention the BULB placement above the tank (most are raising the T5s)
Nutrient/quality/water flow/Pests- What other factors are affecting the colorization? Additives.. "Astaxanthin", Feeding, Temp stability, Sumps, Tank age, Feeding, Husbandry? Proper Params (this is a biggie i think), water flow, health of frag to begin with (RTN)
All im saying is that why not try to find the nm range that the corals prefer to fluoresce under? Which means the corals are being actively excited to produce the pigments at levels they are most suited for, and are usually the colors we all want to see?
That way if by chance (and more often than not is the case) other factors (flow, nutrients, temp, params etc etc. ) are out of WHACK, at least the Lighting nm situation would be at least mitigated and the coral isnt FIGHTING to produce/excite, and this IMHO reduces the margin for error with hobbiests trying to attain great coral colors.
Last edited:
The Grim Reefer
Ready for some NOBALL!!!
Reefgeek has the graphs for ATI lamps posted, not Gmans. The actinics all will have some UV output. That is why some people see UFO;s when looking at the lamps. The Blue lamps (BLue Plus, Actinic Plus) drop off at the UV range.
The Grim Reefer
Ready for some NOBALL!!!
I think where the corals are comming from might be playing a big role in this. If you take corals that have been raised under halides and place them under T5's it's a pretty good bet the color will change to some degree. The fw SPS I have played with seem to have done well under the lights.
Serioussnaps
New member
I think what alot of people are doing when they are "lightening" SPS under T5's is poor/improper acclimation.Period. People get all gunho and go sticking new arrivals halfway up the tank under these lights and lighten the heck out of them. Every last frag i have bought i started at the very bottom for 2 weeks!!!! And also every last frag i have bought has better color in my tank than it did under the metal halide system that i got them from. I have also noticed that the problem with lightening is seriously mitiagated by not running your bulbs and inch off the water, not overdriving them, and using some of the lower par bulbs(blue plus, actinics and such) I can't wait to throw a picture of my whole tank after a year and let people drool over colors from T5's. It is simply hobbyist related and not light related. I had to chime in here, i will do so again after hearing more.
I think you are looking way too far into something, and in doing so overlooking the real causes of why some people "lighten" or turn their sps pastel colors. I also think alot of people that experience this are BBer's like myself, yet dont feed the heck out of their tank like i do.
I think you are looking way too far into something, and in doing so overlooking the real causes of why some people "lighten" or turn their sps pastel colors. I also think alot of people that experience this are BBer's like myself, yet dont feed the heck out of their tank like i do.
BubbleMonkeyIII
New member
So Grim you think the Gman PURE 03s im running now from GEEK, are the same ones on the gman site? So then I was ALREADY getting what appears to be the BEST 03 output so far we have found in the UVA range?
But, I was running only ONE gman 03, (its a bit older now too) one CUSA 10k, One Ebay, and one other CUSA Actinic, when everything browned and faded, but I think the 10k was just overwhelming the other spectrums, plus I made the mistake of putting some no name Blue bulbs in from EBaY which I couldnt ID properly. The other bulbs I had running were CUSA Actinics (560nm) And I think I placed the corals too high (though I didnt think that was possible at first, coming from Halide tanks) though I know it is now.
Another problem was the CUSA 10k and 560nm Actinics were from the used light when I got it, supposidly only with 6mos use. So I dont know what real condition they were in as well.
Now I really like the new combo I got going on as far as how the tank looks, for performance Im seeing colors start to fluoresce on previously brown corals. They are slowly coming back.. Might just be time going by etc.. letting them acclimate to my system, But I have also done some other things at the same time so I cannot attribute this SOLEY to the lighting.
I got my Ocean Fresh Coral Vibrance coral powder in from EBAY over the weekend and have started dosing that too. Have also increased the Cyclopseez dosing when I found out it contains some of the same color enhancers that the Ocean Fresh does, but in natural form. I noticed recently my candy canes feeders started extending out for the first time along with my corals too it seems, Not sure if this is the powder or the cyclopseeze or a combination of both, but thats good to see.
ATI -AB+
GM - Pure 03
AM -Ocean Blue
UVL- SuperActinic
But, I was running only ONE gman 03, (its a bit older now too) one CUSA 10k, One Ebay, and one other CUSA Actinic, when everything browned and faded, but I think the 10k was just overwhelming the other spectrums, plus I made the mistake of putting some no name Blue bulbs in from EBaY which I couldnt ID properly. The other bulbs I had running were CUSA Actinics (560nm) And I think I placed the corals too high (though I didnt think that was possible at first, coming from Halide tanks) though I know it is now.
Another problem was the CUSA 10k and 560nm Actinics were from the used light when I got it, supposidly only with 6mos use. So I dont know what real condition they were in as well.
Now I really like the new combo I got going on as far as how the tank looks, for performance Im seeing colors start to fluoresce on previously brown corals. They are slowly coming back.. Might just be time going by etc.. letting them acclimate to my system, But I have also done some other things at the same time so I cannot attribute this SOLEY to the lighting.
I got my Ocean Fresh Coral Vibrance coral powder in from EBAY over the weekend and have started dosing that too. Have also increased the Cyclopseez dosing when I found out it contains some of the same color enhancers that the Ocean Fresh does, but in natural form. I noticed recently my candy canes feeders started extending out for the first time along with my corals too it seems, Not sure if this is the powder or the cyclopseeze or a combination of both, but thats good to see.
ATI -AB+
GM - Pure 03
AM -Ocean Blue
UVL- SuperActinic
Serioussnaps
New member
I already mentioned this but if you are T5/bb sps like myself, i have noticed much better colors by feeding MORE of a mixture of cyclopeeze(frozen), rotifers, dt's oyster eggs, and selcon. I feed the heck out of it and skim ike crazy....my colors improve weekly, since. Also, i will note that since i went 3 ati blue plus, 1 ati aquablue by dropping the daylight bulbs....my colors have imroved over 10 days, however,i am noticing a trend of somewhat slowed growth, but at this point it is obviously too early to tell
RichConley
New member
I think every tank I've ever seen where coral lightening was bad, was running Icecap 660s, so I agree.
Serioussnaps
New member
People are BLASTING acros with light......."bigger is better" "more is better"--------common misconception where people take the generalization:"lots of light" to the nth degree......just another observation---id like to reiterate the poor acclimation procedures i see people doing with T5's-----they think they are weaker than halide and assume SPS need lots of light so they start them in the middle to the top of their tanks and bang--------bleached, lightened whatever.....if you dont start right, it wont end right
dvanacker
DID I SOUNDS SMRT??
I can say almost with out a doubt that lack of feeding (low nutrient) and poor aclimation was the problem. I've also lowered the PAR but pulling one aquablue and adding a pure actinic bulb.
COLORS ARE MUCH BETTER. My colors and corals are looking great. Better then alot I've seen in tanks light with MH. Remeber lighting isnt the only factor.
I also have a feeling that a lot of the people choosing T5 are new to SPS. That is a learning curve in itself.
COLORS ARE MUCH BETTER. My colors and corals are looking great. Better then alot I've seen in tanks light with MH. Remeber lighting isnt the only factor.
I also have a feeling that a lot of the people choosing T5 are new to SPS. That is a learning curve in itself.
Jacob D
New member
Wow this thread has taken off yet again, thanks Bubble Monkey
Honestly there is a little too much for me to digest at this point (I'm going to have to dedicate some time and catch up), especially having to look after a 5 month old on a regular basis I think we could use a summary.
Someone asked me for an update several pages back, so here it is:
I pulled out the 3000k bulb because it was turning anything with blue pigments to more of a purple shade. My current setup is
B+, 6000k, B+, B+, Aquablue, B+
The overall appearance is slightly blue. I am still unhappy with the colors of blue and purple corals, and a few of my corals are extremely pastel. So essentially not much has changed for me.
I know of at least one person who claimed the UVL Super Actinic was his secret ingredient to getting the blues and purples to richen up, so Bubble Monkey may be onto something. I'm not able to find a spectal graph for that bulb so I don't know how it compares to the Gman 03.
Honestly there is a little too much for me to digest at this point (I'm going to have to dedicate some time and catch up), especially having to look after a 5 month old on a regular basis
I think we could use a summary.Someone asked me for an update several pages back, so here it is:
I pulled out the 3000k bulb because it was turning anything with blue pigments to more of a purple shade. My current setup is
B+, 6000k, B+, B+, Aquablue, B+
The overall appearance is slightly blue. I am still unhappy with the colors of blue and purple corals, and a few of my corals are extremely pastel. So essentially not much has changed for me.
I know of at least one person who claimed the UVL Super Actinic was his secret ingredient to getting the blues and purples to richen up, so Bubble Monkey may be onto something. I'm not able to find a spectal graph for that bulb so I don't know how it compares to the Gman 03.
