N/P reducing pellets (solid vodka dosing)

[Moser]

I've never done weekly 50% WC's. I had high NO3 of about 80ppm and my corals wouldn't quit dying. So I did three 50% WC over the course of a week. And brought my N levels down to around 10ppm. The corals responded immediately with growth and color. In that one instance I didn't care about bacteria populations, I simply wanted to save my livestock...and I did. Keep in mind that I HAD been running BP for a few weeks with no reaction. After the N drop, still no reaction.

then I didn't do a WC for at least TWO months now. So again, I've probably changed a lot less than the average person that does 5-10% each week. (or bi-weekly) I don't think the zeo users would recommend having nitrates at 80+ppm, and would recommend changing that first over worrying about bacteria levels.

so I don't think you can blame my methodology, I wasn't doing ANY water changes when I started the BP, I was giving them the chance to show some results, and provide food for the corals I did have.

my tank was stable at about 10-15ppm nitrate after the first major WC months ago...till now, now they are at what looks like 5-10ppm.

while waiting for the SWC pellets I was told to take the current BP (original NP) out of the reactor...I was lazy and just turned it off...they sat in the reactor ithe saltwater and no flow for 10 days...no bacteria. (shrug)

there is no copper or wireing. There is nothing in use in the tank that is out of the oridinary for reefers to use. I have and still do test and get zero ppm with a copper test kit. (undetectable)

again, it be nice if the new stuff kicked in.

Sounds good, but clearly there is something putting nitrate into your system and I believe that is the source of your problem.

Regardless of the system you use to try and deal with the excess nutrients, you need to find where they are getting into your system from and address that first.

Either your live rock is leaching or you're overstocked, or feeding too much. I can't think of what else it could be.... I assume you are using DI resin on your RO?.

Maybe the methods you have tried are just being overwhelmed with the level of nutrients they have to cope with?.

Even Zeovit can sometimes take up to a year to get nutrients down according to the manual.....

Mo

 

[Moser]

I just saw a pic of your tank.... I'm puzzled that you can have nitrates that high?!.

It's either your rock or your sand bed. If you say your last system was zero nitrates, then either the rock was allowed to die??.... (I guess not??).... or you need to change out your sandbed. Why don't you run barebottom for a short while and soak some aragonite for a month or so and switch to a shallow sandbed.... and continue the pellets.

Assuming you still want to run the pellets that is...

Mo

 

[Moser]

but allas...I'm still giving them time. I just did another 50% WC and got my NO3 down to 5-10ppm. PO4 is still undetectable. AND it's finally been a week so I got to add the other half of my SWC pellets. For a total of 250ml of pellets that are tumbleing happily. Maybe they will have an impact on the now lower nitrates, but I'm not gonna hold my breath on it. Wish me luck everyone.

This is what is puzzling me.....

You just did another 50% water change and you have done several before, yet you haven't done a water change for several months.... It seems you either do 50% or none??.... not ideal in my book ... you need some stability.

You were using NP pellets? Now you're using SWC pellets?..... Again another change.

I'm not sure what the source of the problem is in your tank, but there are a number of things to look at, including the rapid changing of methodologies.


Mo

 

[Moser]

I was lazy and just turned it off...

again, it be nice if the new stuff kicked in.

Quit being lazy when you're so worried about your tank......:thumbsup:

As you know, there are no miracle cures in reefkeeping.....

Mo

 

[Moser]

Just measured the NO3 in my reactor with bloom and it is 0ppm. I guess I will pour out the water and fire the reactor back up.

Don't let them become exposed to air. It will kill your culture.

I would run the reactor and put the output into a bucket/ drain until the water in the reactor has been exchanged.

Then top up the sump with newly made seawater.

That way, the bacteria won't die......
:thumbsup:

Mo

 

[Moser]

I don't think the zeo users would recommend having nitrates at 80+ppm, and would recommend changing that first over worrying about bacteria levels.
.

That's my point and I disagree with you!. They wouldn't recommend 50% water changes they would suggest a slow and gentle intro to Zeo and expect you to make slow changes and not expect results for 6/12 at least!.



Mo

 

[Moser]

Just saw on WM Ecobak thread that WM is creating a seeding bacteria for their pellets.

Well, if there is a demand then why not :thumbsup:

Mo

 

[daveonbass]

Sounds good, but clearly there is something putting nitrate into your system and I believe that is the source of your problem.

Regardless of the system you use to try and deal with the excess nutrients, you need to find where they are getting into your system from and address that first.

Either your live rock is leaching or you're overstocked, or feeding too much. I can't think of what else it could be.... I assume you are using DI resin on your RO?.

Maybe the methods you have tried are just being overwhelmed with the level of nutrients they have to cope with?.

Even Zeovit can sometimes take up to a year to get nutrients down according to the manual.....

Mo

I'll answer these one at a time. Well there is "something putting nitrate into every system, even the ocean. BUT, there are no excess nitrates coming into the system. That's why the nitrates have not gone UP since my water changes. So I'm confused as to why you think I have a problem, clearly I do not.

NO3 does not "leach" from live rock, you have that confused with PO4. I have very little in the way of livestock (comparatively). Foods...maybe...but again, no RISE in NO3.

being overwhelmed: by what? I would have agreed when my NO3 was at 80ppm, but once it got down to 10ppm it should have been manageable, others have started with more and had them reduce in less time.

I'm assumeing that with zeo you would still see SOME slow reduction, I may be wrong. I would be shocked though is zeo claims that there may be no reduction for a year and suddenly the NO3 is gone over night.

 

[daveonbass]

I just saw a pic of your tank.... I'm puzzled that you can have nitrates that high?!.

It's either your rock or your sand bed. If you say your last system was zero nitrates, then either the rock was allowed to die??.... (I guess not??).... or you need to change out your sandbed. Why don't you run barebottom for a short while and soak some aragonite for a month or so and switch to a shallow sandbed.... and continue the pellets.

Assuming you still want to run the pellets that is...

Mo

that's cause I DON'T have nitrates that high. I "used to" but now they are around 5-10ppm and have been for months now. The rock was moved over and left in the new tank to recycle for a month with a BB set up. I kept it clean that way...but there was almost no cycle. Not till I moved a large rock on the left to a QT. Then I got a nitrate spike; this event is now my current theory of where my NO3 came from, the system not having as much bacteria, which by now would have stabalized, hence the lack of a current rise in NO3 with or without BP.

the sand was NEW, I did not transfer the old sand to the new tank. I dumped it.

 

[daveonbass]

This is what is puzzling me.....

You just did another 50% water change and you have done several before, yet you haven't done a water change for several months.... It seems you either do 50% or none??.... not ideal in my book ... you need some stability.

You were using NP pellets? Now you're using SWC pellets?..... Again another change.

I'm not sure what the source of the problem is in your tank, but there are a number of things to look at, including the rapid changing of methodologies.


Mo

not ideal in my book either, but I was giving the pellets a chance(months) and they did nothing. I would do regular WC with less water, but if I did guess what, I'd have no NO3 left to nessecitate the BP in the first place. So that is my delema. If I did the weekly changes, I wouldn't need the BP, cause they wouldn't kick in till the NO3 is undetectable. So I just wasted a lot of time and money on BP's.

I used NP pellets for 3 months with zero results, and then tried rice (bad idea/dont do it) then back to NP for a few weeks, then off...they just sat for a week. Now finally in in week 2 of the SWC. Yes a lot of change if you wanna think that, but remember there are people seeing results in less than a week. So you tell me if 3 months is not enough time.

as far as the "problem" in my tank, if you are referring to NO3 then I say there is no problem, not now. Again there "used to be". If it's referring to why the BP don't work, that's anyones guess.

 

[jjsan]

Anyone having issue with Nitrate dropping fast or not dropping and where phosphate moves a little? If so, how did you guys compensate for the issue?

 

[daveonbass]

Quit being lazy when you're so worried about your tank......:thumbsup:

As you know, there are no miracle cures in reefkeeping.....

Mo

I'm starting to think you are quote fishing. Read the context of why I was lazy; I was instructed to turn them off...so I did. I just didn't remove them till the new BP's got here, it gave me the added knowledge of seeing that the BP produced Zero bacteria while just sitting idle. Which is good cause it rules out yet another theory.

plus at that point I wasn't "worried" about the tank since my corals had stopped dying months ago from the mass WC, and were now growing like never before. What's to be worried about. I just turned the reactor off...as instructed.

 

[daveonbass]

That's my point and I disagree with you!. They wouldn't recommend 50% water changes they would suggest a slow and gentle intro to Zeo and expect you to make slow changes and not expect results for 6/12 at least!.



Mo

well, I admit I know nothing about zeo, but in 6-12 weeks waiting for it to work, I could just drain the tank and start over from scratch, all my corals would have been dead. I'm not reccommending massive WC to anyone, I did it as a nessiccary action to save what I had, and the corals resopnded graciously with color, PE and growth. Even my nem looked better. Again, I'm not advocating large WC's, I'm just saying what I had to do to stop the die off in my tank and it was the right move for me, everything is better now for it, and the NO3 (my only detcetable nuisance) has yet to go back up...

 

[Moser]

I'll answer these one at a time. Well there is "something putting nitrate into every system, even the ocean. BUT, there are no excess nitrates coming into the system. That's why the nitrates have not gone UP since my water changes. So I'm confused as to why you think I have a problem, clearly I do not.

NO3 does not "leach" from live rock, you have that confused with PO4. I have very little in the way of livestock (comparatively). Foods...maybe...but again, no RISE in NO3.

being overwhelmed: by what? I would have agreed when my NO3 was at 80ppm, but once it got down to 10ppm it should have been manageable, others have started with more and had them reduce in less time.

I'm assumeing that with zeo you would still see SOME slow reduction, I may be wrong. I would be shocked though is zeo claims that there may be no reduction for a year and suddenly the NO3 is gone over night.

You're totally confusing!!. Do you have a problem or not?.... Sometimes it comes across that you do have a problem ( nitrates at 80 etc etc), but now you claim you don't.... what are you accusing BP of not doing exactly?...

Live rock can hold detritus and rotting material which generates Ammonia. This can lead to a leach of nitrates after cycling. Let's not get into the semantics of whether there is a nitrate reserve or an Ammonia reserve. The end result is nitrates coming from Live rock.

I expect you would see at least a slow reduction with BP's as well if you had enough patience.. .. :thumbsup:

But 10ppm isn't bad.... what are you expecting the BP's to do that prompted you to change and claim they are a scam????
Mo

 

[Moser]

not ideal in my book either, but I was giving the pellets a chance(months) and they did nothing. I would do regular WC with less water, but if I did guess what, I'd have no NO3 left to nessecitate the BP in the first place. So that is my delema. If I did the weekly changes, I wouldn't need the BP, cause they wouldn't kick in till the NO3 is undetectable. So I just wasted a lot of time and money on BP's.

I used NP pellets for 3 months with zero results, and then tried rice (bad idea/dont do it) then back to NP for a few weeks, then off...they just sat for a week. Now finally in in week 2 of the SWC. Yes a lot of change if you wanna think that, but remember there are people seeing results in less than a week. So you tell me if 3 months is not enough time.

as far as the "problem" in my tank, if you are referring to NO3 then I say there is no problem, not now. Again there "used to be". If it's referring to why the BP don't work, that's anyones guess.

3 months doesn't sound like it was enough for you, but now having heard your story, I'm not really sure why you are giving the pellets bad press.

With all due respect it sounds as though you just want to do away with maintenace altogether and have a low nutrient system at the same time.... and BP's didn't deliver this.... I'm not sure the other pellets will either.


Mo

 

[Moser]

I'm starting to think you are quote fishing. Read the context of why I was lazy; I was instructed to turn them off...so I did. I just didn't remove them till the new BP's got here, it gave me the added knowledge of seeing that the BP produced Zero bacteria while just sitting idle. Which is good cause it rules out yet another theory.

plus at that point I wasn't "worried" about the tank since my corals had stopped dying months ago from the mass WC, and were now growing like never before. What's to be worried about. I just turned the reactor off...as instructed.

uhh, turning the reactor off and leaving it to go anaerobic and produce H2S whilst sitting in your tank...... is beyond being lazy!:strooper:

So wait, your nitrates were low, your corals were growing nicely..... you claim this is due to mass WC, yet your pellets had been running for a few weeks at that time and you choose not to credit them at all in the face of everybod else getting similarly good results.....

Don't tell me you're looking for a result like this?....

:frog:

 

[Moser]

well, I admit I know nothing about zeo, but in 6-12 weeks waiting for it to work, I could just drain the tank and start over from scratch, all my corals would have been dead. I'm not reccommending massive WC to anyone, I did it as a nessiccary action to save what I had, and the corals resopnded graciously with color, PE and growth. Even my nem looked better. Again, I'm not advocating large WC's, I'm just saying what I had to do to stop the die off in my tank and it was the right move for me, everything is better now for it, and the NO3 (my only detcetable nuisance) has yet to go back up...

Hmm, dare I say it....

IT WAS DUE TO YOUR PELLETS!!!......

:dance:

 

[bluereefs]

Dave have unusual situation where his bp dont work at all and that is proved when he left the bp in reactors for 10 days and water was still clear inside, if the bp do not produce bacteria in still water then they 100 % do absolutly nothing in his aquarium. Because that was his expririence and his money he can call the products with the name he wont, he spent the money buying the products what are advertised in particular way and that product simply do not do what was advertised in his situation. Is sure not his fault because he do what was instructed in instruction for use.

And there is more simillar issue with IIRC almost every brand of bio pellets, why those issue are happening is not knowen jet, bp obviously work because there are people who have succes with them, but some not.

And probably many more issue will arise as more people start to use BP, with the time hopefully we will find best method to use them. Zeovit start with just a few products/botlles, now there are dozens of them, in the begining of zeovit system many thing was unclear or misleading, also then and today some have succes with zeovit and some not. It is normal when something new hit the market. Bio pellets probably have potentional to become very good nutrient reducing system, but because nobody use them for long time we can not be 100 % that they are completly harmless on the long run.

 

[Moser]

Dave have unusual situation where his bp dont work at all and that is proved when he left the bp in reactors for 10 days and water was still clear inside, if the bp do not produce bacteria in still water then they 100 % do absolutly nothing in his aquarium. Because that was his expririence and his money he can call the products with the name he wont, he spent the money buying the products what are advertised in particular way and that product simply do not do what was advertised in his situation. Is sure not his fault because he do what was instructed in instruction for use.

And there is more simillar issue with IIRC almost every brand of bio pellets, why those issue are happening is not knowen jet, bp obviously work because there are people who have succes with them, but in same cases they dont.

And probably many more issue will arise as more people start to use BP, with the time hopefully we will find best method to use them. Zeovit start with just a few products/botlles, now there are dozens of them, in the begining of zeovit system many thing was unclear or misleading, also then and today some have succes with zeovit and some not. It is normal when something new hit the market. Bio pellets probably have potentional to become very good nutrient reducing system, but because nobody use them for long time we can not be 100 % that they are completly harmless on the long run.

18 months in reefkeeping with tanks thriving is long enough to stay that pellets have place. Many systems don't last half as long as that anyway.

Dave's nitrates came down with large WC, but they stayed down, with only the BP's working. No fuge, etc etc. so what caused them to stay down with good coral recovery?... maybe the pellets??. Unless there is something I'm, missing again.

I don't believe they should be called a scam on a public forum. It is damaging to the reputation and livelihood of the company/'s involved, particularly when they work in may many systems.

I still don't believe from what I heard today that they didn't work in Dave's system... but I am a little dim :blown:

Mo

 

[bluereefs]

I really dont know how bp can work without bacteria, bacteria is esence of carbon dosing, Dave writed that he left the bp in reactor just unpluged but the sea water was inside, no cloudines, no bacteria string, no mulm... nothing, just clear water and clear bio pellets, what is clear sign that there was no bacteria at all, actually I find amazing that after 10 days in still water he do not get bacterial bloom inside the reactor. Once I made similar action, due to bacterial bloom I just turn off the reactor, with the bp and water inside, after 3 days smell from reactor was unbelivable and he was completly cloudy, it took me loot of washing to remove bacteria and smell from bio pellets.

Also I am prety sure that after months of use Dave pellets are same size as they was in the begining, if they worked they will be smaller and smaller due to bacteria population. I have working and not working bp, not working bp are in use a few months, they are the same size as they was in the begining, working bio pellets are very much reduced in size.