daveonbass
New member
I agree...but no one has been able to figure out what the "x factor" is in my tank. But I DO know that the BP are still not working. 
N/P reducing pellets (solid vodka dosing)
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drummereef
Team RC
I agree...but no one has been able to figure out what the "x factor" is in my tank. But I DO know that the BP are still not working.
:lol: Well if you want to find out... Remove your DSB in the sump and reduce the sand bed in the display to less than 1". Done.
daveonbass
New member
no, that doesn't make any sense, since there is no onclusive evidence that the sandbed is the problem. That's just asking me to put my hands in the tank and dirty up a lot more water for nothing. Like I said this is the kind of system I've run for years before this tank and never had problem with NO3. There is no proof that the sand is doing anything harmful, and in fact may be benifitial. Using your argument, I should remove everything from the tank, and start over, slowly adding one thing at a time till I find out what may have caused the nitrates to rise. That's a terrible phylosophy. Besides I mentioned how the tank went from 5ppm to 10ppm, not a huge increase considdering it's the only increase I've had in the last 5 months that was noticeable. And now out of the clear blue, it's the sand that I've had for quite a while. I just can't buy that. On the other hand, and getting back on topic, THE BP ARE STILL NOT WORKING. I think THAT is a huge contributor to the problem
once again, there is no instruction that says "only use BP in a tank with less than 2" or more than 6" of sand." nor do they stipulate to use any other addatives or doseing schedules. Once again it's the BP I'm trying to get to work, not my old tried and true methods of keeping a reef. I KNOW how to do it the old fashioned way, and I still have to rely on that to keep my SPS growing, yet this new BP concept claims to ease some of the hassle, and so far it has done nothing of the sort.
again, search this and all the other threads with some form of BP and I promise you will see all different kinds of sand bed depths. As I said before, it's a non relavant issue to the topic.
once again, there is no instruction that says "only use BP in a tank with less than 2" or more than 6" of sand." nor do they stipulate to use any other addatives or doseing schedules. Once again it's the BP I'm trying to get to work, not my old tried and true methods of keeping a reef. I KNOW how to do it the old fashioned way, and I still have to rely on that to keep my SPS growing, yet this new BP concept claims to ease some of the hassle, and so far it has done nothing of the sort.
again, search this and all the other threads with some form of BP and I promise you will see all different kinds of sand bed depths. As I said before, it's a non relavant issue to the topic.
:lol: Well if you want to find out... Remove your DSB in the sump and reduce the sand bed in the display to less than 1". Done.
I had about a 4" sand bed, it's down to about 3". I hope to get to get it to about 1" for that very reason.
drummereef
Team RC
OK since you are unwilling to find out IF the sand bed is the underlying issue... can't help you there.
Have you experimented with more pellets? Just saying you have "plenty" of pellets doesn't mean you have enough to support the bio load of the system. It's a matter of experimentation until you start seeing a reduction of N and P. If NO3 is constantly rebounding after water changes, you don't have enough - no matter what the manufacturer says.
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jlinzmaier
Premium Member
Dave.
You sure seem arguementative to any suggestions to help your situation. Your continual frustration towards us makes it hard to want to help you. I understand that you haven't had much success with the BP's but don't take it out on the ones who are trying to help you.
We hear very loud and clear that you expect these BP's to work with no further intervention other than putting them in a reactor, but maybe trying other interventions might assist in the funtion of the BP's. If your not willing to try anything else than putting the BP's in a reactor and expecting your nitrates to disappear than you've already proven that hasn't worked on "your" tank so why haven't you given up already and used some other method of filtration?
Jeremy
You sure seem arguementative to any suggestions to help your situation. Your continual frustration towards us makes it hard to want to help you. I understand that you haven't had much success with the BP's but don't take it out on the ones who are trying to help you.
We hear very loud and clear that you expect these BP's to work with no further intervention other than putting them in a reactor, but maybe trying other interventions might assist in the funtion of the BP's. If your not willing to try anything else than putting the BP's in a reactor and expecting your nitrates to disappear than you've already proven that hasn't worked on "your" tank so why haven't you given up already and used some other method of filtration?
Jeremy
jlinzmaier
Premium Member
I've sent an e-mail to DVH imports to see if they can shed any light on who is carrying the original product and how we can truly know what product is the original. The response from Jason Frey at Premium Aquatics has me believing that the original product has changed which seems contradictory to what the NP reducing biopellet website (which is managed by DVH imports) indicates on their site (http://npbiopellets.dvh-import.com/index.php/The-Difference.html).
Jeremy
Jeremy
daveonbass
New member
I'm not arguementative, I'm just factual. There is no mention of having to do anthing else to "make" the bp work. Since I KNOW that my method of aquarium husbandry can and is successful, I see no reason to change my whole tank set up simply to get some "add on" filtration to work. If I wanted to reduce my nitrates, I can.
the reason I do not, is because my tank is being used as a kind of test bed in order see if this particular brand of bp's will work in my po4 limited scenario. THAT is why I will NOT change anything in my tank. The more I change, the more variables there are to questuon if "that" was what worked, or if it's a combination. So my tank must be run without changes till we can say conclusively that the pellets do/do not work.
besides, nothing mentioned has been an issue in any other tanks. So why would my tank be the exception? First we have to give te pellets time to truly work, or not.
personally, if it were completely up to me, I'd just dump them all together and call them a hoax. (like swine flu)
the reason I do not, is because my tank is being used as a kind of test bed in order see if this particular brand of bp's will work in my po4 limited scenario. THAT is why I will NOT change anything in my tank. The more I change, the more variables there are to questuon if "that" was what worked, or if it's a combination. So my tank must be run without changes till we can say conclusively that the pellets do/do not work.
besides, nothing mentioned has been an issue in any other tanks. So why would my tank be the exception? First we have to give te pellets time to truly work, or not.
personally, if it were completely up to me, I'd just dump them all together and call them a hoax. (like swine flu
)
Sohal Tang Tim
Member
will try to find it Ding Dong
will try to find it Ding Dong
I will try to find the article on the sand bed..it is the ultimate article in my opinion and has phenomenal facts/information in it..... It really removes
all the rumours on the subject for me at least..I believe it 100% to be accurate.
Will advise if I find it will post it as per your request Ding Dong.
Tim
will try to find it Ding Dong
I will try to find the article on the sand bed..it is the ultimate article in my opinion and has phenomenal facts/information in it..... It really removes
all the rumours on the subject for me at least..I believe it 100% to be accurate.
Will advise if I find it will post it as per your request Ding Dong.
Tim
Sohal Tang Tim
Member
Sand Bed Ultimate Article
Sand Bed Ultimate Article
http://www.ronshimek.com/deep_sand_beds.html
Try the above...hopefully it is the right link....It would not copy and paste....
My pasting is not working properly for some reason.
let me know what you think about the above article.
I hope it helps you
Tim
Sand Bed Ultimate Article
http://www.ronshimek.com/deep_sand_beds.html
Try the above...hopefully it is the right link....It would not copy and paste....
My pasting is not working properly for some reason.
let me know what you think about the above article.
I hope it helps you
Tim
Sohal Tang Tim
Member
the other article on proper substrate material is
the other article on proper substrate material is
This article describes the ultimate sand bed material
http://www.caribsea.com/pages/produ...ks also good luck Hope it helps Tim :beer:
the other article on proper substrate material is
This article describes the ultimate sand bed material
http://www.caribsea.com/pages/produ...ks also good luck Hope it helps Tim :beer:
I set up a gravity fed RDSB in 2001 on my old setup using a small plastic office garbage can and 30lbs of sugar grade aragonite (Southdown) which worked magically until I broke the system down to move it 6 years later.
DJ
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jlinzmaier
Premium Member
Dave.
I just spent about 30 minutes reading through all of your last several posts on this thread and I think I have a better understanding of where you're coming from. I think your experimentation is valid and I think there will be genuine feedback by your experimentation to see the effects of NP pellets "without any further intervention to manage nitrates". I was under the impression that you were looking for an intervention to manage nitrates as opposed to what I now see as an experiment to see what effect NP biopellets will have when implemented with no further intervention.
Have you thought of further validation of your claim to a phosphate limited tank?? I know you mention you've gotten a zero reading from your test kit several times but have you thought to test with a more accurate method like a photometer. Granted, a hanna photometer is still +/- 0.04 in regards to accuracy but they are far more accurate and not faulted by color interpretation as most hobby grade kits. Just a thought.
Jeremy
I just spent about 30 minutes reading through all of your last several posts on this thread and I think I have a better understanding of where you're coming from. I think your experimentation is valid and I think there will be genuine feedback by your experimentation to see the effects of NP pellets "without any further intervention to manage nitrates". I was under the impression that you were looking for an intervention to manage nitrates as opposed to what I now see as an experiment to see what effect NP biopellets will have when implemented with no further intervention.
Have you thought of further validation of your claim to a phosphate limited tank?? I know you mention you've gotten a zero reading from your test kit several times but have you thought to test with a more accurate method like a photometer. Granted, a hanna photometer is still +/- 0.04 in regards to accuracy but they are far more accurate and not faulted by color interpretation as most hobby grade kits. Just a thought.
Jeremy
drummereef
Team RC
So my tank must be run without changes till we can say conclusively that the pellets do/do not work...
personally, if it were completely up to me, I'd just dump them all together and call them a hoax. (like swine flu
Questions to ask...
1. If you didn't have a NO3 or PO4 issue to begin with, why introduce a pellet system?
2. Will you ever scientifically conclude the pellets don't work?
The manufactures of these pellets make no guarantees nor do they reduce or eliminate regular maintenance on your tank such as water changes etc... They do claim to reduce NO3 and PO4 which intern makes for a better environment overall for the inhabitants you keep.
I don't really know why you would want to test the pellets when you claim you had a nutrient poor system to begin with and/or a system you felt worked and were comfortable with. Just trying to understand what your original motivation was since we cannot deem your "test bed" to be at all a scientific analysis of whether or not the pellets work. Interesting, possibly useful information yes - but scientific, no. No one aquarium can be the analysis for the whole. There are other factors involved on your system and it seems you are unwilling to adjust to allow the pellets to do their job - which could be a simple as adding more pellets until you see a consistent reduction of N and P.
To me, critical mass plays a very important roll with the bacteria produced by the pellets. You need have to have enough bacteria to support the bio load. If you aren't seeing a reduction in nutrients, you don't have enough bacteria thus the need for more pellets.
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bluereefs
New member
I dont know do you guys read complete thread but the Dave are not the only one who do not have succes with bio pellets, few people also report no efects whatsoever with their bio pellets and give up, Dave did not give up and he try few months to get his NP bp to work and latelly with SWC bp (IIRC now he use SWC bio pellets).
Is easy to see if bp work or not, if there is no bacteria they do not work, why that is happening is a mystery because people who report no efects from bp all have different tanks.
I follow succes and not succes with bp last 7 months, from threads in RC and localy from people who use them and one things is sure, there are no consistency with their usage, almost all experience are different, there are people like me who can not get them to work in standard fluid reactor and need to made diy reactor (after 7 + months playing with fluid reactor), there are one person who get bacterial bloom in smallest fluid reactor what was completly uselles for me and other reefers localy after months of usage, he just get another bacterial bloom with 300 ml of bp on 200 g aquarium with no detectable nitrate and fosfate, now he use 200 ml of bp on 200 g aquarium, other reefer use same reactor with the 700 ml of bp in aquarium with high phosphate and no bacterial bloom and no effect, other use him in ordinary box (breeder box) with few hundreds ml of bp and get bacterial bloom.... 70 % of us use same return pump, same reef keramic, same aditives, same natural sea water, same sand, same circulation pumps, same lighting model.... still we all get diferent efect with the same batch of bio pellets, NP.
I do know that even we use almost completly same equipment, water chemistry and other parameters are of course not the same in each aquarium, but the efects of bp are drasticaly differents and do not have strings with phosphate, nitrate, sand, kh,... whatever
Is noted that high nitrate can cause bacterial bloom, I do had high nitrate and used 3 diferent reactor on 150 g tank with up to 2500-3000 ml of bp for months without bacterial bloom and without bacteria production/nitrate removal, now with my diy reactor in that same tank I use 500 ml of bp, nitrates are 2,5 mg/lit and had bacterial bloom. In this case efect of bp was not related with the nitrates/fosfates concetration but with the reactor design.
Is noted that small or undetectable nitrate can not cause bacterial bloom, local reefer just get 4-5 bacterial bloom on new aquarium with 300 ml of bp at 200 g aquarium without nitrates or fosfates, there are also few local report of bacterial bloom with very small or undetectable nitrates.
Is noted that bp bp can not work if there is high nitrate and no phosphate, I get bacterial bloom (4 or 5 of them) with my diy reactor with 100 nitrate and 0 phosphate, same is happening to local reefer.
To made story short, each of us localy have completly diferent efects with bp, none of them are acording to instruction, none of them have any strings with nitrates, fosfates, sand... I mean on strings/conection what will be reproducable in other tanks, if someone get bacterial bloom with 500 ml of bp in 100 g aquarium with 50 mg/lit nitrates and 0 fosfates with fluid reactor then the other reefer who use same amount of bp in same reactor at same nitrate/fosfate concetration and same capacity of aquarium should get him too, right? Well , that is not the case as far I know from my expirience.
And IMO that is not related with the NP bp itself, but with carbon filtration and bacteria production, we just dont know to much about that.
Is easy to see if bp work or not, if there is no bacteria they do not work, why that is happening is a mystery because people who report no efects from bp all have different tanks.
I follow succes and not succes with bp last 7 months, from threads in RC and localy from people who use them and one things is sure, there are no consistency with their usage, almost all experience are different, there are people like me who can not get them to work in standard fluid reactor and need to made diy reactor (after 7 + months playing with fluid reactor), there are one person who get bacterial bloom in smallest fluid reactor what was completly uselles for me and other reefers localy after months of usage, he just get another bacterial bloom with 300 ml of bp on 200 g aquarium with no detectable nitrate and fosfate, now he use 200 ml of bp on 200 g aquarium, other reefer use same reactor with the 700 ml of bp in aquarium with high phosphate and no bacterial bloom and no effect, other use him in ordinary box (breeder box) with few hundreds ml of bp and get bacterial bloom.... 70 % of us use same return pump, same reef keramic, same aditives, same natural sea water, same sand, same circulation pumps, same lighting model.... still we all get diferent efect with the same batch of bio pellets, NP.
I do know that even we use almost completly same equipment, water chemistry and other parameters are of course not the same in each aquarium, but the efects of bp are drasticaly differents and do not have strings with phosphate, nitrate, sand, kh,... whatever
Is noted that high nitrate can cause bacterial bloom, I do had high nitrate and used 3 diferent reactor on 150 g tank with up to 2500-3000 ml of bp for months without bacterial bloom and without bacteria production/nitrate removal, now with my diy reactor in that same tank I use 500 ml of bp, nitrates are 2,5 mg/lit and had bacterial bloom. In this case efect of bp was not related with the nitrates/fosfates concetration but with the reactor design.
Is noted that small or undetectable nitrate can not cause bacterial bloom, local reefer just get 4-5 bacterial bloom on new aquarium with 300 ml of bp at 200 g aquarium without nitrates or fosfates, there are also few local report of bacterial bloom with very small or undetectable nitrates.
Is noted that bp bp can not work if there is high nitrate and no phosphate, I get bacterial bloom (4 or 5 of them) with my diy reactor with 100 nitrate and 0 phosphate, same is happening to local reefer.
To made story short, each of us localy have completly diferent efects with bp, none of them are acording to instruction, none of them have any strings with nitrates, fosfates, sand... I mean on strings/conection what will be reproducable in other tanks, if someone get bacterial bloom with 500 ml of bp in 100 g aquarium with 50 mg/lit nitrates and 0 fosfates with fluid reactor then the other reefer who use same amount of bp in same reactor at same nitrate/fosfate concetration and same capacity of aquarium should get him too, right? Well , that is not the case as far I know from my expirience.
And IMO that is not related with the NP bp itself, but with carbon filtration and bacteria production, we just dont know to much about that.
Sohal Tang Tim
Member
not apples to apples
not apples to apples
I personally would not give up on the NP pellets....I believe they dooooo work iffffffff used properly and set up properly....
If you get 5 reefers all using the same reactor you are *not* going to get the same results because each one putting different amount of media....each one using different flow, each one using different pump, each one water parameters different, each have different size tank etc etc.....>Wayyyyyy
to many factors that effect or can effect the TIME it takes to see benefits
so....we should see benefits at different times.....
How long does mother nature take? that is what you are dealing with....
My guess is 6 weeks before you see decent results and that is IFFFFFFF
you hooked them up proper and have PROPER flow through them etc.....
My friend has 2 x Two Little Fishies Phosban 150 reactors...each one is 1/2 full and tumbling beautifully using the mesh that he custom installed himself
and he is getting better coral growth, better coral colouring, better polyp
extension etcetc and it has only been about 7 weeks for him.....
Just my 2 cents.
Hope it helps.
Tim
not apples to apples
I personally would not give up on the NP pellets....I believe they dooooo work iffffffff used properly and set up properly....
If you get 5 reefers all using the same reactor you are *not* going to get the same results because each one putting different amount of media....each one using different flow, each one using different pump, each one water parameters different, each have different size tank etc etc.....>Wayyyyyy
to many factors that effect or can effect the TIME it takes to see benefits
so....we should see benefits at different times.....
How long does mother nature take? that is what you are dealing with....
My guess is 6 weeks before you see decent results and that is IFFFFFFF
you hooked them up proper and have PROPER flow through them etc.....
My friend has 2 x Two Little Fishies Phosban 150 reactors...each one is 1/2 full and tumbling beautifully using the mesh that he custom installed himself
and he is getting better coral growth, better coral colouring, better polyp
extension etcetc and it has only been about 7 weeks for him.....
Just my 2 cents.
Hope it helps.
Tim
holdyourlight
New member
Is it advisable to do a water change during the bacterial bloom (VERY cloudy) or no?
TheFishMan65
New member
The biggest worry (if I understand this) is lack of oxygen during the bacteria bloom. Add an air stone and you should be fine. Corals may recede, but I don't remember reading of any permanent damge to corals from the bacterial bloom.
Sohal Tang Tim
Member
water change
water change
I would change 10 percent immediately myself - my friend did same when he had bacterial bloom and zero problems.
Good luck,
Tim
water change
I would change 10 percent immediately myself - my friend did same when he had bacterial bloom and zero problems.
Good luck,
Tim
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