N/P reducing pellets (solid vodka dosing)

[tntneon]

well back with the pellets...no cloudyness...and no effect so far. Looks they they still don't wanna work. :/

how much vienegar do I dose in the tank, and what "kind"? My tank is 58g with 20ppm NO3, 0ppm PO4.

I thought that you had 160 ppm no3 ?
Doesn't matter 20 ppm is much better

Your sytem is about 2X bigger than mine and i started dosing natural white (transparent) vinegar of 5° , at 2 ml a day and upping it by 2ml / 2days.

So in your case i would start with 4 ml .

greetingzz tntneon

 

[pecan2phat]

Dave,
The inlet & outlet is 3/4", suprisingly enough, the beads started to perculate a bit this morning and my recently cleaned filter socks are clogged.
This is good correct

 

[Tony Romano]

Dave,
The inlet & outlet is 3/4", suprisingly enough, the beads started to perculate a bit this morning and my recently cleaned filter socks are clogged.
This is good correct

Yes socks that turn dark in a day or two are a very good thing. (unless they are on your feet) (sorry)

I would try decreasing in to 1/2", right at connection to reactor. I think that will increase your velosity.

Is this plummbed with PVC or tubing?

Tony

 

[pecan2phat]

Yes socks that turn dark in a day or two are a very good thing. (unless they are on your feet) (sorry)

I would try decreasing in to 1/2", right at connection to reactor. I think that will increase your velosity.

Is this plummbed with PVC or tubing?

Tony

Hi Tony,
I will stop by Home Depot and get the adapters to decrease to 1/2" this weekend, hopefully that will do the trick.
The line going to the reactor is semi-rigid tubing that is used for quick disconnect fittings and the effluent is just regular vinyl tubing that is above the water surface in the sump.

I changed out my dual 7"x16" socks this morning before work because they were overflowing and 12 hrs later, I came home to the same. I took the socks off and extending the drain pipes closer to the water surface to decrease splashing. Is it okay to run without socks until the bacteria sloughing subsides?
Also came home to somewhat cloudy tank and the skimmer is working overtime.

 

[180+55reef]

Hi
So I have 300 gallons of water and run 2000 ml with a good amount of tumbling
the output goes into my sump with my skimmer, this has been running for 5 months.
I have seen no real improvement, and my skimate is clear..... I do feed a fair amount,,, my ph is 8 flat.......

anyone have any ideas how to make this work?
Thanks Frank

 

[RegalAngel]

Hi
So I have 300 gallons of water and run 2000 ml with a good amount of tumbling
the output goes into my sump with my skimmer, this has been running for 5 months.
I have seen no real improvement, and my skimate is clear..... I do feed a fair amount,,, my ph is 8 flat.......

anyone have any ideas how to make this work?
Thanks Frank

And your Nitrate level is (was)...........

 

[180+55reef]

Always zero, 5-6 inch deep sand bed

 

[ari5736]

Hi
So I have 300 gallons of water and run 2000 ml with a good amount of tumbling
the output goes into my sump with my skimmer, this has been running for 5 months.
I have seen no real improvement, and my skimate is clear..... I do feed a fair amount,,, my ph is 8 flat.......

anyone have any ideas how to make this work?
Thanks Frank

no improvement in what, these reduce nitrate, if your nitrate is 0 what is your measure of improvement, phosphate?

 

[jlinzmaier]

anyone have any ideas how to make this work?
Thanks Frank

Yes, I have to agree with the post above. What are you trying to accomplish with the BP's if your nitrates are already 0?? What sort of reaction are you looking for??

Jeremy

 

[180+55reef]

algae

it seems I have lots of cyno and not much skimate or what I have is clear

 

[ari5736]

Are there people out there that can conclusively say the pellets have worked for them?

As for me, I started with 1.5 liter in March on my 180 gallons of water. Added 1 liter more in June, and I am only seeing my Nitrates increase. My flow through the reactor is high and the pellets are all fluidized. My NO3 gradually increased from about 10-30ppm over the past few months. I definitely don't have any nitrate sinks, and got the NP reactor's output flowing a skimmer oversize by anyone's standards. I started cutting back feeding which I rather not do.

Looks like its back to the sulphur denitrator for me. That works for sure, just more of a pain. I will keep the NP reactor online with the hope it does something eventually.

 

[ari5736]

algae

it seems I have lots of cyno and not much skimate or what I have is clear

You know cyno is not an algae, but rather a bacteria, and the pellets are a bacteria feed for your system.

 

[180+55reef]

thanks for everyone help,

I guess I have heard people talk about the "miracles" that these things perform... black skimate no algae ect.... clear water....

I didnt know cyno was bacteria.. thanks!
so I am feeding this with the Pellets?

I also run cheato and calerpa for what it is worth

thanks Frank

 

[ari5736]

so I am feeding this with the Pellets?

I believe this is a subject of debate.

 

[jlinzmaier]

thanks for everyone help,

I guess I have heard people talk about the "miracles" that these things perform... black skimate no algae ect.... clear water....

I didnt know cyno was bacteria.. thanks!
so I am feeding this with the Pellets?

I also run cheato and calerpa for what it is worth

thanks Frank

There are no silver bullets in the world of reefkeeping!! NONE!!

IMO, the only "miracle" is that such delicate animals can even survive in our aquarium settings which have a significant lack of biodiversity, limited food supply, limited food diversity, excessive organic nutrient pollution, and abnormal means of filtration/nutrient management - in comparison to a natural reef.

My impression is that the pellets were developed as a means of bacterial proliferation through a means of a solid form of carbon source dosing. This limits the need for daily doses of a carbon source like vodka, vinegar, sugar etc.... When we dose liquid carbon sources to our tank it seems this will often fuel the growth of organisms like cyanobacteria which are often limited in growth (as are many other reef organisms) by an available carbon source within the water column. The idea is that the pellets would limit the growth of nuisance cyano becuase the manufacturers claim they are a solid form and "leach no carbon into the water column". Many people observe bacterial blooms and increased growth of cyano when using the pellets indicating these growths are likely being fueled by an available carbon source entering the water column. The common signs of bacterial proliferation outside the BP reactor seems to indicate a carbon source is very likely leaching from the pellets - contrary to what the manufacturers may claim.

A common debate that can be said for carbon source dosing (liquid source or solid "BP" source) and the correlated cyano growth, is that when the carbon source is dosed it increases bacterial proliferation which significantly lowers organic nutrients like NO3 and PO4 (the common organics required for algae and cyano growth). Even when people initially see increased growth of cyano when a form of carbon source dosing is implemented, it's thought that if you stick it out for a while, the proliferation of the nitrifying bacteria will eventually outcompete the cyano and other algea for available nutrients thus limiting the growth of these nuisances.

If your getting increased cyano with the use of these pellets you may want to focus on other nutrient management methods in addition to the BP's. By decreasing po4 levels with the use of GFO and increasing water flow you will be taking another step to decrease available nutrients and helping alleviate the problem from several vital aspects. Managing nutrients with various methods of filtration and nutrient export is often the best means of approach.

The BP's are unfortunately no silver bullet. They are merely an adjunctive means of nutrient management available to us. Unfortunately, some people seem to get little to no decreases in nutrients from the use of the BP's; however, the product is relatively new to the US market and I suspect many alterations and improvements are yet to come as time passes and more experimentation is done.

A great benfit that the BP's can provide (if you can get them to do induce some bacterial proliferation) is the additional food souce of bacterioplankton. Some may implement the use of BP's not for nutrient management, but more so for the release of bacterioplankton to feed the reefs delicate invertebrates which require these food sources to live/thrive. To those who are doubting the functionality of the BP's, I would suggest a simple test. Turn the flow off of your reactor for 2-3 hours (keeping it full of water the entire time) then shake it vigorously for a bit. If the water gets milky white then the BP's are inducing some bacterial growth (the white cloud is bacterial mass being released into the water). Even if you get some bacterial proliferation, it may not be enough to serve the purpose your intending or it maynot able to provide the amount of nutrient reduction you're hoping to see. Getting a white "mulm" release from the shaken BPs indicates there is bacterial proliferation occuring; however, if your not seeing a significant decrease in nutrients you may need to use more BP's or use them in addition to other means of filtration.

Jeremy

 

[daveonbass]

I thought that you had 160 ppm no3 ?
Doesn't matter 20 ppm is much better

Your sytem is about 2X bigger than mine and i started dosing natural white (transparent) vinegar of 5° , at 2 ml a day and upping it by 2ml / 2days.

So in your case i would start with 4 ml .

greetingzz tntneon

Just as a recap. I started with 80 to 160 ppm NO3 in the display tank, whish I then ruduced down to 10ppm through three 50% water changes. The BP nor the rice ever did anything to reduce the NO3, and now the level is back up to 20ppm.

My QT is still way up there with 160ppm NO3. IT neve came down even a little durring the short attempt at running BP in the sump.

Both tanks STILL have 0ppm PO4. (undetectable)

HOWEVER:

I have been given a chance to be part of a "test" to see just how phosphate limited tanks respond to BPs. Saltwaterconnection.com has offered to let me try out their new product of BP, which according to them is the same ones that NP are now using, and that they are 98% pure. (plh or something like that)

So I'm excited to be using a product that they claim has WORKED for all that have used it. BUT, I did have to make some changes.

1. remove the current BP (no problem there, been gone since monday)
2. feed as much nori as I can, in an atempt to raise the PO4 levels.
3. disconnect the reactor from the skimmer, and instead give the skimmer a seperate pump, then having the effluent from the reactor near the skimmers intake, thus allowing some effluent/bacteria to enter the tank.

My impression...

1. no biggie...
2. I thought the point was to see what happens with their pellets in a po4 "limited" tank...yet I'm to try to raise the po4 levels. Sadly I've been throwing a whole sheet in there a day, and my foxface is either eating it or pulling it off to drift in the water. But either way it's not raising the po4.
3. This is something that I did like a little. I wouldn't have had a problem doing this before, but the manufacturer never really gave a good explaination as to the BEST way to use these NPBP. IF it should not go DIRECTLY tot he skimmer then that should be said, and made very clear. If some bacteria is supposed to get to the main display tank, then again, it should be stated to do so...yet the original manufacturer did no such thing. Just vague recommendations like "put the BP in your tank". That's not good enough for meticulious reefers like some of us can be. I'm upset that I have to change my set up and use yet another pump, cause this will never show if the BP would ork in my original set up or not. But I'm happy casue at least someone has STATED how to best use the product. So I have made the pump addition an changed my set up.



So when they get here on Monday I will be starting a new chapter in my BP attempt. Hopefully all goes well and these work out for me this time.

 

[jlinzmaier]

Just as a recap. I started with 80 to 160 ppm NO3 in the display tank, whish I then ruduced down to 10ppm through three 50% water changes. The BP nor the rice ever did anything to reduce the NO3, and now the level is back up to 20ppm.

My QT is still way up there with 160ppm NO3. IT neve came down even a little durring the short attempt at running BP in the sump.

Both tanks STILL have 0ppm PO4. (undetectable)

HOWEVER:

I have been given a chance to be part of a "test" to see just how phosphate limited tanks respond to BPs. Saltwaterconnection.com has offered to let me try out their new product of BP, which according to them is the same ones that NP are now using, and that they are 98% pure. (plh or something like that)

So I'm excited to be using a product that they claim has WORKED for all that have used it. BUT, I did have to make some changes.

1. remove the current BP (no problem there, been gone since monday)
2. feed as much nori as I can, in an atempt to raise the PO4 levels.
3. disconnect the reactor from the skimmer, and instead give the skimmer a seperate pump, then having the effluent from the reactor near the skimmers intake, thus allowing some effluent/bacteria to enter the tank.

My impression...

1. no biggie...
2. I thought the point was to see what happens with their pellets in a po4 "limited" tank...yet I'm to try to raise the po4 levels. Sadly I've been throwing a whole sheet in there a day, and my foxface is either eating it or pulling it off to drift in the water. But either way it's not raising the po4.
3. This is something that I did like a little. I wouldn't have had a problem doing this before, but the manufacturer never really gave a good explaination as to the BEST way to use these NPBP. IF it should not go DIRECTLY tot he skimmer then that should be said, and made very clear. If some bacteria is supposed to get to the main display tank, then again, it should be stated to do so...yet the original manufacturer did no such thing. Just vague recommendations like "put the BP in your tank". That's not good enough for meticulious reefers like some of us can be. I'm upset that I have to change my set up and use yet another pump, cause this will never show if the BP would ork in my original set up or not. But I'm happy casue at least someone has STATED how to best use the product. So I have made the pump addition an changed my set up.



So when they get here on Monday I will be starting a new chapter in my BP attempt. Hopefully all goes well and these work out for me this time.

I highly suspect they are indicating to have some BP reactor effluent enter the tank because it will further induce bacterial proliferation due to the fact that the pellets likely leach the carbon source. I'd love to hear their explanation though!!

Gosh, in order to get the BP's to work you need to dump a boatload of organics (nori) into the system. Sounds pretty contradictory to me. I would be concerned about what other organics you're adding with the intentional significant increase in nori feeding (all in an attempt to boost po4). There's far more to nori than po4 and adding anything out of proportion is likely to cause more bad than good. Too bad there's no way to measure the levels of the thousands of types of organics that can build up and become harmful in a reef tank.

I wonder if it would be less risky and have less potential for disaster if you would add something like sodium phosphate as opposed to the nori sheets. I'd need a chemistry guru to indicate the best pure phosphate additive, but sodium phosphate comes to mind because that's what we give people with low serum po4 levels. Randy's the po4 expert. He creates medicine to remove po4 from a persons body. I'm sure he'd have a better suggestion for raising po4 other than adding large amounts of nori.

Not to mention, if they are having you do this experiment to test the effects of BP's in low po4 situations then they are completely contradicting themselves by asking you to try to boost your po4.

Sounds to me like regular water changes would be a whole let less difficult.

Please keep us posted with your results.

What are you using to test po4 with again??

Jeremy

 

[ari5736]

Very interesting Dave, thanks for sharing. Please let us know how it goes.

 

[daveonbass]

first paragraph response: yes.

second: what? I'm just feeding my fish. Are you saying that feeding nori is any more pollutant than feeding any fishfood?. For me it's just another fish food. I put a sheet in for my foxface. When he's done (about a day) I put in another piece. Don't most people feed their herbavores nori from time to time?

third: I've already asked what I could safely add to get my PO4 up safely. No one had a "easily" safe method. So that was scratched.

fourth: yeah...that was my thoughts exactly. But at least they "seem" to know what will work better. The original manufacturer did nothing to help those of us with no success.

the rest: yes WC's would do the trick, BUT, I would also like to find a way to feed more (both more food and more fish) and still have a secondary nutrient export other than just the WC's.

my test kits are API...not expired. (i checked) ((and double checked))

 

[tozzi]

Starting a reactor tonight with the bio pellets. Can i dose some zeo start 2 to jump start it? Or some zeo food 7? Just wondering cause i have it layin around