Near Full-Auto Water Change?

[jlylec]

Hey guys...I'm starting my build of a 150H in-wall. I'm trying to plan everything I can ahead of time including the ATO RO/DI and FSW for water changes. I'd like to automate this process very easily and I've read MUCH on this in the threads and haven't seen anything exactly like what I had in mind so I wanted to see if that's because what I have in mind is a bad idea!

My plan is to house the RO in a tank above the FSW so I can gravity feed that. Then I'll have a pump in the FSW tank to pump that water up and directly into the main display. When I do this it will cause the water level in the sump to rise and subsequently overflow into a waste drain in the floor.

This should allow me to simply:
1. gravity drain RO to FSW tank;
2. mix salt in with heat;
3. turn on pump in FSW tank.

If this works really well I could set the pump on a timer to run for 3 minutes once a day or something and then just make sure I mix more FSW every week or so. There will be a separate RO ATO gravity run to the sump to keep that water level static. What do you guys think about this? Anything I'm missing that would make this dangerous or not work?

I'll post some pics of my work so far on the tank room side and the stand later. My Miracles tank should be here in 3 weeks!

thanks!
Lyle

 

[evoi19]

how would you regulate how much ro/di flows into the FSW tank?

Also, i would add a powerhead in the FSW for circulation to help mix the salt when added.

 

[Cuervo]

Seems like it would work pretty well to me. Make sure there's no way the drain could ever backup into the tank. (or did you mean literally the sump will overflow onto the floor and then just run into the drain.. that could get messy)

 

[jlylec]

The FSW will be plumbed directly to the display and the pipe will be above the water line so it shouldn't create a siphon there either.

Filling the FSW tank with the RO will be manual I think. I'll just turn a valve when I want to fill it and turn it off once it fills. I guess I'm really just talking about eliminating the need to siphon water or pump waste water out. Trying to come up with a way to PUSH the waste out with the fresh.

 

[jlylec]

Seems like it would work pretty well to me. Make sure there's no way the drain could ever backup into the tank. (or did you mean literally the sump will overflow onto the floor and then just run into the drain.. that could get messy)

I could drain directly onto the floor as the floor slopes to the drain and the sump is only about a foot from it, but I would plumb with a bulkhead all the way into the drain to avoid salt creep everywhere.

 

[evoi19]

yea i like the setup. Seems logical to me. I'd just add a gate valve and not a ball valve on the line between the ro/di tank and the fsw tank.

I think you mentioned the ro/di tank will be used for ATO as well? Maybe get a slightly larger tank than the fsw tank so that when you make saltwater, you'll have extra ro/di for top off.

 

[nauticac4]

What happens when the power cuts off and the display dumps into the sump and out of the "water change drain". The systems fires back up and your skimmer and return pump run dry and ruin themselves because you were at work while the power went out for 10 minutes.

Make sure that the drain has a valve on it. So this doesnt happen.

Also seperate your top off into a smaller vessel like a 10 gallon tank or bucket. If the ATO fails and you dump in 5 or so gallons of water the whole thing wont crash and burn. But if you throw 30-50 gallons of fresh RODI into a 150 thats gonna cause huge problems.

Remember the more complicated you try to make something the more chances Murphy has at kicking your butt

Murphy's Law:
If anything can go wrong it will. If there is a possibility of several things going wrong the one that will cause the most damage will be the one that goes wrong. If you perceive that there are four possible ways in which something can go wrong, and circumvent these, then a fifth unforseen and unprepared for way will promptly develop. It will be impossible to fix the fifth fault without breaking the fix on one or more of the others.

 

[Drag Racer]

The only issue I can see right off the top of my head without thinking about it much is, will the overflows in the DT be able to handle the added water while the return pump is still going? Depending on how fast the water enters it could work.

 

[Drag Racer]

What happens when the power cuts off and the display dumps into the sump and out of the "water change drain". The systems fires back up and your skimmer and return pump run dry and ruin themselves because you were at work while the power went out for 10 minutes.

Make sure that the drain has a valve on it. So this doesnt happen.

Also seperate your top off into a smaller vessel like a 10 gallon tank or bucket. If the ATO fails and you dump in 5 or so gallons of water the whole thing wont crash and burn. But if you throw 30-50 gallons of fresh RODI into a 150 thats gonna cause huge problems.

Yes that senario would definitly cause issues. When the power comes back on, the water level in the return section will be much lower than normal. Then the ATO will try and recover it. Lowing the salinity.

The only way it wont is if that drain hole is just at the maximum water height when return pump is shut off.

 

[mrx66699]

just make it simple and use a liter meter lll or use a parastillic pump with dual heads one line dripping in and the exact same amount dripping out and then you fully control your continuous water change and its a lot simpler than what your trying to do to save a few bucks Im assuming then use a simple float switch with an ato kit from brs for your rodi takes about 30 minn to set up and gives you way more control than what your thinking of doing and you can even tie it all in to a controller if you have one

 

[Nathan.Titulaer]

It looks very good, but the problem I see is that you will have to change more water this way than a normal water change. If you mix the new water with tank water then have it overflow the sump to drain you are not effectively removing the contaminates as effectively as with a normal water change. It defiantly has the benefit of changing small amounts of water over a long period to avoid any type of shock that is generally associated with a water change.

 

[jlylec]

Well this is why I've been spending hours a day on this site...great advice!

Thanks guys...these are all really good points.

Nautica...I hadn't considered why happens when the power cuts off and the DT drains into the sump. A valve on the drain would solve that problem. Thanks for the advice on the smaller ATO tank too...that's really good advice I'll be using!

Drag...I should be fine with the overflows keeping up as I'm going to run a modified "Herbie method" with plenty of 'emergency' capacity in the overflows.

mrx...I thought about the parastillic's and it's not that I'm trying to save money...I really thought my idea may be simpler and more trouble-free. Maybe not though...I'll look into those more.

Nathan...I'm not sure I follow. I think that if the FSW is pumped into the DT on the side opposite of the overflow (mine happens to be in one corner), all of the water being pushed out the drain would be old and wouldn't contain any of the FSW. I was planning on being able to pump about 20-25 gallons in about 3 minutes probably. Too fast for the new to really mix with the old and be drained out. Maybe I'm wrong though.

I'm going to look at an adjustment of a cut-off valve. Any other comments/suggestions?

Thanks again guys!

 

[MentalNote]

The system for a auto water change is one by Scolley. Here is the thread http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1677003

Basically, he uses the tunze ATO system to both top off the tank with RO/DI and change out NSW. I would explain the system but few people are as detailed and thorough as he is, it would be easier to just read his thread.

The only addition I would add is that his system utilizes timers and a relay. You could add a toggle switch to the relay to "semi-automate" it.
Flip switch --> pump water out --> NSW is topped off --> flip switch to turn off.

 

[docs911]

Feel free to stop by my place in Richmond. I have a liter meter 3 setup with auto water changes and top off.

 

[jlylec]

The system for a auto water change is one by Scolley. Here is the thread http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1677003

Basically, he uses the tunze ATO system to both top off the tank with RO/DI and change out NSW. I would explain the system but few people are as detailed and thorough as he is, it would be easier to just read his thread.

The only addition I would add is that his system utilizes timers and a relay. You could add a toggle switch to the relay to "semi-automate" it.
Flip switch --> pump water out --> NSW is topped off --> flip switch to turn off.

thanks mental...i hadn't seen this thread! this is a very good system but a little more complicated than what i was thinking. that said it does deal with the inherent issues my idea has. the only downfall i can see is the cost of the osmolator and controller which look like they may total around $700. i guess i should probably get a controller anyway and should just suck it up. i love the idea of a controller it's just that the price tag of this tank has steadily grown to now over $3k!

 

[jlylec]

Feel free to stop by my place in Richmond. I have a liter meter 3 setup with auto water changes and top off.

i would love to take you up on this offer docs...i will likely come to RIC when i'm ready to stock the tank as you have much better reef stores there then we do in cville. which do you prefer? i know there are a couple. i'm trying to build a completely eco-friendly system so i'd like to stick to tank raised livestock. thanks again!

 

[jlylec]

Here is the beginning of my tank room. It's in the back wall of my workshop and the other side is my 'man room' basement/theater.

The RO/DI and FSW station is going to be stacked to the left of the tank and you can see the floor drain directly in front of the tank.

I'm in the process now of painting which I hate. I was told to prime with oil based primer (stinks) and then cover with a couple coats of dry lock. Hopefully I'll have this all done in the next couple weeks before my tank arrives. I'll post more pics then!

 

[5380]

I tend to agree with Nathan. My tank has a gyre that causes the ditritus to accumulate in 2 places. I hit two buttons and my waterchange program on my programmable timer starts. I have a bit of a design flaw because of the flow rate of my pump otherwise it works perfectly.

1. Main return, skimmer, and ATO turn off.
2. Water change pump, and the main return connected to a jbj ato turns on to fill the sump to the same level as normal operation.
3. After 20 minutes the return, skimmer and normal ATO comes back on line.

The majority of functions a controller does for people with regard to on/off control can be done with a good programmable timer which doesn't cost but about 40 bucks. My timer doesn't measure temp, ph, control my vortechs, or dim any lights (gotta pay for features!)

 

[jcmelski]

Something doesn't look right with that stand. the legs look like their off somehow.

 

[jlylec]

Something doesn't look right with that stand. the legs look like their off somehow.

It wasn't right. Those back legs were cut from a 4x4 that looked much straighter when I cut it. When I put them in they were twisted to the point I couldn't get them straight. They weren't even stood up right in place in that pic, but I swapped them out with new good ones.

Here it is now in the process of paint.