Necessity of Artemia

coral_addict

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Is brine shrimp necessary in captive propagation? I'm going to try and breed bangaii's and I know you can use artemia as a first food due to their size and development, but I was wondering if you could go straight to prepared foods. This would decrease the hassle and cost of raising artemia from scratch. I realize this would probably decrease survival rate, but I feel that with enough practice the losses would be negligable. I was thinking you could use New Life Spectrum (crushed up or whole) for small fish. I think the pellets are about the right size for it, and with the proper time to get the fish to eat it, I think it could work.
 
Why does it lower the survival rate? It seems to me that if the fish will eat it they will survive, and since artemia has to be enriched anyway to feed it, it really isn't a great food to feed IMO
 
Most fry, once past the meta stages, are keyed on live food. You can substitute dry food with some luck, but sizing, water movement, tank fouling and a whole lot of other issues make it a distant second choice.

By the way, Golden Pearls is the ideal substitute in a dry food.

Jeff
 
If we can teach adult fish to eat prepared frozen food, shouldn't we be able to teach baby fish too? I read somewhere that if one fish will eat prepared, then the rest will see it and for the most part copy it. So couldn't you design a system in which the food was constantly suspended and moving around, giving the illusion of life?
 
Unfortunately the above posts are correct. It will occasionally work, but reduces survival by orders of magnitude. We experimented with this both in marines when I ran a marine hatchery, and also at the university when working with endangered fw species. I believe fry are especially cued in on the jerking motion of copepods etc, and there is an active avoidance response to anything that is just drifting. I think this is likely to avoid eating the suspended particles, sand, etc that drifts and can clog the intestines. Their intestines are not convoluted before meta in many species and every bite needs to be high quality. They also don't learn from others pre-meta. The eyesight in clowns is limited to about 1cm distance for prey tracking, and in the wild, they are dispersed across many miles so there is no socialization developed. They likely don't ever see another larvae through their development, so there has been no evolutionary pressure to develop a social learning response. Post meta is different. They can be trained. I got great conversion by tapping the glass with a pencil before feeding artemia, and rapidly they became so excited by tapping I could switch to dry immediately - the scarfed down anything drifting by once excited. In Bangaii's you might have some luck with this since they are much better developed at hatch than clowns, so you might be able to train them off artemia in a few days.
 
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Oh, and just because it hasn't been done yet, doesn't mean it can't be. I have had a little luck in re-shaping food particles with protrusions or into fin shapes that created more erratic movement as they moved through the aquarium micro-currents and that seemed to elicit a more interested feeding response. So don't let people like me tell you absolutely it can't. This hobby/industry is in it's infancy, so just because it hasn't worked yet, doesn't mean that a good idea like replacement of artemia won't become the next big revolution in larval fish rearing! Good luck!
 
If we can teach adult fish to eat prepared frozen food, shouldn't we be able to teach baby fish too? I read somewhere that if one fish will eat prepared, then the rest will see it and for the most part copy it. So couldn't you design a system in which the food was constantly suspended and moving around, giving the illusion of life?

One of the differences between adults and larval/juvenile fish is the reserves the fish have to withstand a period of not eating. Adults have enough reserve to handle a few days starvation before they learn. Larval and juvenile fish have little to no reserves once that yolk sac or oil globule has been absorbed, and therefore can't handle starving for a couple of days until they figure that floating dead stuff is food.
 
Oh, and just because it hasn't been done yet, doesn't mean it can't be. I have had a little luck in re-shaping food particles with protrusions or into fin shapes that created more erratic movement as they moved through the aquarium micro-currents and that seemed to elicit a more interested feeding response. So don't let people like me tell you absolutely it can't. This hobby/industry is in it's infancy, so just because it hasn't worked yet, doesn't mean that a good idea like replacement of artemia won't become the next big revolution in larval fish rearing! Good luck!

How did you manage to re-shape the food into fin shapes?
 
Unfortunately the above posts are correct. It will occasionally work, but reduces survival by orders of magnitude. We experimented with this both in marines when I ran a marine hatchery, and also at the university when working with endangered fw species. I believe fry are especially cued in on the jerking motion of copepods etc, and there is an active avoidance response to anything that is just drifting. I think this is likely to avoid eating the suspended particles, sand, etc that drifts and can clog the intestines. Their intestines are not convoluted before meta in many species and every bite needs to be high quality. They also don't learn from others pre-meta. The eyesight in clowns is limited to about 1cm distance for prey tracking, and in the wild, they are dispersed across many miles so there is no socialization developed. They likely don't ever see another larvae through their development, so there has been no evolutionary pressure to develop a social learning response. Post meta is different. They can be trained. I got great conversion by tapping the glass with a pencil before feeding artemia, and rapidly they became so excited by tapping I could switch to dry immediately - the scarfed down anything drifting by once excited. In Bangaii's you might have some luck with this since they are much better developed at hatch than clowns, so you might be able to train them off artemia in a few days.

How old were the clowns when you started the tapping? Were they post-meta?
 
If we can teach adult fish to eat prepared frozen food, shouldn't we be able to teach baby fish too?
Yep. The problem is if an adult doesn't eat for a few days it gets hungry. If fry don't eat for a few hours, they get dead.

Suspension of non-living food has always been an issue for this, and there aren't a lot of good solutions. Yet anyway.

Jeff
 
If you were to put some sort of very small pump at the bottom of the tank so that the flow moved in a circular motion that never allowed anything to settle on the bottom would that work? Something with protected intakes so the fish don't get sucked into it?
 
How does Golden Pearls compare to Otohime Marine Weaning Diets?
Golden Pearls behave very similar to live food, stay in suspension well and come in a variety of sizes. Otohime works great for weaning off artemia naupulii, but I've never tried it as a substitute.

Jeff
 
This would decrease the hassle and cost of raising artemia from scratch.
You know, this is the basis of the thread and I've never found hatching them to be any hassle and it's relatively cheap. With Bangaii Cardinals you don't need the artemia for more than a few weeks, they wean to prepared food pretty well and quickly.

I'm in the process of putting together brood stock for Bangaii breeding, I may test the idea of prepared foods from the start when I get them going. It's a curiosity thing for me now. :)

Jeff
 
...and since artemia has to be enriched anyway to feed it, it really isn't a great food to feed IMO

This is not 100% true...You are confusing what you have read on the internet imo. From a clownfish breeder perspective, artemia fry can be successfully used as a replacement for live feed beyond rotifers once the clown fry has gone past meta.

I believe the credit on this analysis goes to j.wilkerson who mentioned that one gulp of a baby artemia for a clownfish was the equivalent in protein to 20 gulps of rotifers. However artemia is not sized for clownfish fry until AFTER meta.

Artemia as an adult, that has been sitting at the LFS with no phyto to eat, will need enrichment since they are basically shells of protein (very little).

I've never bred bangghais - but given that they are live breeders vs egg breeders there are differences in how one would raise them - especially given how much larger the babies are.

Also - i agree with jeff - even when i spend the extra $$$ on de-cap'd artemia (highly recommend) - the yield you can get on those artemia eggs is more than enough to handle any short period of feeding banghais.
 
You know, this is the basis of the thread and I've never found hatching them to be any hassle and it's relatively cheap. With Bangaii Cardinals you don't need the artemia for more than a few weeks, they wean to prepared food pretty well and quickly.

I'm in the process of putting together brood stock for Bangaii breeding, I may test the idea of prepared foods from the start when I get them going. It's a curiosity thing for me now. :)

Jeff

I don't have much room to set up even a small artemia hatchery, which is why I say hassle. That and the fact that I would like to be able to have a system in which I don't have to constantly replace a live food source.
 
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