Need 180 advice-Ben&bobbi's 180 upgrade build

[ben&bobbi]

plumbing layout

plumbing layout

here is what i am planning for the plumbing.

With a great bit of help from Boostable, jay24k, flfirefighter13, Me No Nemo and my boss (a PE) this is the direction i am heading.



The sump - AGA 55gal standard

the first 4" of the sump, where the drains exit, will hold filter socks or rubble - not sure which.
the second section will be the skimmer / heater / ??? area, not too much room with that G3.
the next section will be the return for the Sequence Dart.
the last section will be the refugium.


Dart plumbing -

the inlet will be all 2"
the outlet is all 1.5" up to the 3/4 blkhd that goes through the tank.
this will lead to (2) 3/4" locline, per side.

Drain -

this will be 1.25"
the left return will have a 1" tee off to the refugium with a ball valve.
the right side will have the same to feed the modified G3.

Let me know what you think, before i start gluing and drilling!
thanks
Ben

 

[ben&bobbi]

next step will be putting tile down in the livingroom under the tank, and running a dedicated circuit to the same wall.

sometime between now and then, i am going to seal the corners of the stand and paint it with drydock (sp?) to make a water catch incase a flood would occur (again!).

we have 2 stands that will go on each side of the tank to house topoff on one side, and chemicals, etc on the other.

 

[Boostable]

Looks good!!.. I like it.

The only suggestion I have is to replace the two unions on the drain side with two ball valves.

Reason being it will give you better control on the exit volume of the overflows. Natrually you want to run them wide open and more then likely will, however one may slightly outflow the other making your water level run lower in one overflow versus the other.. does that make sense?

Not to mention, help you "tune" the flow with that big pump..

In your case your left overflow will surely outflow your right, just due to the plumbing layout. Having the ball valves will give you a more even flow.

On the other side of that coin, you may want to consider doing the same on the intake side. Once again you will regulate the flow with the big monster ball valve on the pump, BUT what happens if you need to shut down one side? It happens.. Get something out, clean an overflow etc.. Not a necessity, but something to consider..

Looking good..

Jack

 

[Mr James]

Hey Ben, it's me, James, former FPE Employee!! I have a 180g now and love it. Actually I want a bigger tank, but will wait for a while. Let me know if you have any questions, although it looks like you are in good hands with this crew!!

I have a quick opinion. Use the Dart for a closed loop. Use a lesser GPH pump for your return, something along the lines of a 1200gph or less. Make the flow happen with a closed loop or powerheads, not the return. (Tunze Streams are nice) Slow the flow in the sump.

 

[flfirefighter13]

Looks good to me, I do second Jack, valves are good everywhere, Aquatic Eco sells the single union ball valves for a very reasonbale price, they only come in 1.5 and 2" but would be great for this application. Im sure you can get them elsewhere but I have become addicted to walking in with and order and haveing it handed to me in a box....... WAY to many trips to home depot and lowes digging through boxes for HOURS trying to figure out why people cant just put stuff back where it belongs

 

[ben&bobbi]

Boostable
i see what you are saying about the drains. I will have to go to Lowes and get a union ball valve and see if it will fit. the left drain is kinda tight to get down and over the 55g, but maybe a 90 instead of 45 coming out of the tank will give me a little more room.
I wasn't worried about the return lines, because an imbalance with them will just help mix things up a little. So i think i will leave them as they are. i wouldn't think i would be able to just shut down one side without having to readjust the pump, but i could pre-mark it huh.

Mr James -
haven't heard from you in awhile! I have been over and over about a closed loop. Unfortunatly, my tank isn't drilled for one, and no one will guarantee the drilling, so forget that idea. I could do a setup like melev's website, but don't think i want to see it. I am going to direct feed the skimmer, and the only other thing will be a heater, which i hope won't be needed much!

thanks for the tips.

 

[cstires]

You can also get single union ball valves at Lowe's. Home Depot doesn't sell them. They are about half the price of the Aquatic Eco ones.

 

[ben&bobbi]

ok, this morning i tried drilling the sump - now i have a 55gal without a side!

so i am back in the market for a sump. which puts all the plumbing on hold! anyone with experience with acrylic!? good place to buy it?
Ben

 

[flfirefighter13]

Not sure if their prices are cheap but Piedmont plastics has a store just north of daytona, 386-274-4627 they can also cut to size if im not mistaken. Boostable has done some sweet acrylic work and has some local supliers to, may want to ask him. I know one store he told me about was on the south end of orlando but I cant remeber their name. If you decide to go for it Ive got a bunch of 7"x48" strips laying around, Your more than welcome to come over and play with them and some weld-on before commiting to a large project. Ive got a few small things to build that dont need to be pretty so it could be a good learning trial.

 

[mflamb]

I think you need to think about the flow math.
If I understand correctly, you have two 3/4 inch bulkheads for the pump return into the tank, from a 1.5 inch pump outlet.
A 1.5 inch pipe has a flow area of 1.766 square inches.
A .75 inch pipe has a flow area of 0.44 square inches.
So you are restricting a 1.766 square inch flow area down to a 0.88 square inch flow area. You are cutting your flow down to less than 50% if you add the flow restriction difference between 1.5 inch pipe and .75 inch pipe.
Then you are dividing the .75 inch pipe into two .75 locline fittings. That will reduce the flow rate to less than 50% coming out of each locline fitting. You will dump all of the .75 inch pipe volume water into the tank, just at a very low effective pressure, causing no surge/wave/flow pressure action in the tank water.

 

[mflamb]

What did you drill the sump with?
Is it tempered glass?
I'm interested in what you think about the flow concerns from the previous post. I can help out if you are interested.

 

[flfirefighter13]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8980273#post8980273 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by mflamb
I think you need to think about the flow math.
If I understand correctly, you have two 3/4 inch bulkheads for the pump return into the tank, from a 1.5 inch pump outlet.
A 1.5 inch pipe has a flow area of 1.766 square inches.
A .75 inch pipe has a flow area of 0.44 square inches.
So you are restricting a 1.766 square inch flow area down to a 0.88 square inch flow area. You are cutting your flow down to less than 50% if you add the flow restriction difference between 1.5 inch pipe and .75 inch pipe.
Then you are dividing the .75 inch pipe into two .75 locline fittings. That will reduce the flow rate to less than 50% coming out of each locline fitting. You will dump all of the .75 inch pipe volume water into the tank, just at a very low effective pressure, causing no surge/wave/flow pressure action in the tank water.

So what do you recomend Mike? Im doing a very similar setup with an added tee dumping into my lower tank/refugium (1.5" pipe teed to 3/4 locline) With the freshwater test I did I had tons of flow, not super high pressure but it was stiring things up a bit and seemed to be giveing th overflows enough to keep them going without gurgles or anything.

 

[mflamb]

Give me the system from the pump to everywhere water comes out on yours.
On ben&bobbi's tank the pump outlet is 1.5 inches and it is divided into two 3/4" pipes. That is cutting the flow in half. On that tank I would use the two 3/4" pipes and add two 3/4" pipes over the back.
The math for flow are is the area of the circle which is pi times (radius squared). Do the math for each pipe and you will see what happens to your flow.

 

[Boostable]

You will have more then enough flow with the dart. The only reason I would see the need for more, MAY be if you where running heavy SPS, but I think Marcy runs her SPS tanks of a very similar setup. Maybe she can chim in..

More importantly then diameter is the actual flow characteristics of the pipe itself.

A 1.5" PVC SCH40 pipe is rated for a maximum flow of 44GPM or 2,640 GPH.

A 3/4" PVC SCH40 pipe is rated for a maximum flow of 11GPM or 660GPH each, totaling 1,320GPH of water volume.

The Dart is rated at approx. 2600~ GPH at 4' of head. Assuming the pump is running at 80% efficiency due to plumbing, which is unlikely, probably more like 60~70% The head pressure is reduced to ~1880 GPH. Still well above what you can flow through the overflows in the first place. However the dart is VERY efficient in this pressure range and has a very low heat transfer rate.

Something else to consider.. MegaFlow Overflows and are rated for a maximum flow through of 600 G.P.H. (Using a rated 2,400 G.P.H. pump at a 5 foot head) x 2 totaling 1200GPH. The Perfecto's flow more..

There are a few other things to consider, including friction lose from elbow, T's and straight pipe included, but the Dart is well positioned to over come those and still perform well.

All other pumps face the same hurdles and don't handle them quite as well. The Reeflo's are built to handle throttling.

Max Flow, Max Efficiency on the pump, and Max Flow on the overflows.. It appears you are right where you want to be in my opinion, but im biased.. LOL

 

[mflamb]

Boostable you are absolutely correct with your math. I just hate to see a guy buy a pump that will do 2600 gph at 4 feet, and only run 1300 gph through it, when a couple extra pipes will increase your flow without increasing your cost, except for the cost of the plumbing.

 

[Boostable]

Yep, im pretty confident on those numbers, they are based on 7 feet per second of flow. This is the maximum recommended velocity for water in a pipe. Higher flows greatly increase the risk of water hammer, which can potentially damage the pipe. Of course we will never see that rate in an aquarium.. at least we hope not.. LOL

The only problem with putting more flow into the tank is that the overflows can't take it out. you can and will overrun those stock overflows.

The Reeflo pumps are ideal in this situation as the are built to be throttle and actually "per Reeflo" are more efficient when throttled back on the outlet side and will consume less watts per hour.. Kinda crazy I know.. Other pumps will work harder in this configuration.

In my situation (perfecto 220) I have 1" I/O so I can push 1080 per side, which is a little closer to max head pressure the dart will provide, and I can run it wide open and it will work my overflow's pretty hard. I actually run it slightly closed as I just dont need that much flow...

In his case, he will be able to run max flow (as determined by his overflows) with his Dart running in a very efficient range.

 

[mflamb]

Yeah, I missed the small 1.25 inch drains. Seems small for a 210.

 

[ben&bobbi]

ok, just getting caught up here.
here are the restrictions i started with -
1) used AGA tank
2) no one will drill it with any kind of guarantee
3) tank is drilled for 1.25" drain and .75" return

the reasoning behind the plumbing - considering #3

1.5" from the pump, split into the 1.5" "Y", splitting off to (2) 1.5" lines connected to .75" return each side - the 1.5" all the way carries the most amount of water to the end of the path. at the end of the line, they neck down to .75 (see #3). The is a pressure reduction after the "Y" fitting, but still increasing flow. THe pressure will be gained back through the .75 returns.

Now at the top where they split into (2) .75 loclines. I see your point, but i can very easily step down to .5". However, if you look back at pg 2, you can see where Boostables tank has been up and performing under pretty much the same configuration, and as he said - works great. The only thing we really changed was keeping it 1.5" till the last minute.

Remember, we are not using pressure washers in our tanks, these are flow pumps, not pressure pumps. I have seen SITC's tanks running and they are flowing great - SPS look happy to me. I am using a smaller pump then her, very slightly smaller tank. But for the price of the pump (even exchange for one i had), low power consumation, and knowing i can add a very low watt powerhead (no head loss) if needed and still stay well under wattage usage - i will give it a shot.

With all that said, i do appreciate your input and but i was not able to order this tank new, and we had to use what we had.
Ben

 

[Boostable]

And you will be very happy with it im sure..

 

[Mr James]

Ben, I have a 180g AGA, not drilled for a closed loop and I plan to do the "over-the-back" closed loop. Works the same way and I am not worried about it one bit. I plan to have 2 lines going down to the pump and one coming back up, split a few ways. I plan to use an OceansMotions 4 way on a Dart or similar.