Need guidance please!!!

[likefish]

Ok folks time to lean on the local experts.....

I am struggling with system nutrient export and algae.

My system is a 120 SPS tank, 60 gallon euphilia/BTA tank, 40 gallon frag tank all running on one central sump.

Turnover rates are good, skimmer is adequate size, i use filter socks and change every few days, my husbandry i believe to be very good. Alks, ca and alkalinity are all very stable

Nitrates and phosphates read O.
ALk at 9
ca at 450
mag at 1400
Salinity .025

My SPS growth is very good and colors are usually pretty good. Until the algae started to appear life was grand!

The algae started after the 3 of 5 new anthias disappeared from my tank (assumed to have died in my rockwork). The growth started as Bright green turf/hair algae on my rockwork in my 120. I have battled this before after sloppy feeding and the problem resolved.

This time it is not getting better. I also have developed brown hair algae in my 60 cube and frag tank. This has been going on for almost 2 months now.

In an attempt to starve out the algae i reduced feeding witch resulted in poor coral color, skinny fish and no reduction in algae growth even with manual removal. I am currently removing over 1cup of algae a week with a pair of forceps (it sucks!). I now feed to keep the fish looking healthy and coral coloration is back to decent, although i know the tank is now low nutrient because my coloration is much better with increased feeding!

ALSO! I have been battling dinoflagelates by manual removal. I have them in check but they are still there in small quantities.

 

[likefish]

part 2

part 2

My proposed solution was to increase nutrient export via a Refugium (ans it gave me an excuse to make the system bigger :frog

I have built an plumbed in a 40 breeder bare bottom with Chaeto. This is a post i put in the macro form that remains unanswered:

 

[likefish]

I recently added a 40gal refugium to my 200 gallon mixed reef system in attempt to combat nuisance algae.

The fuge is lit with 9red 3wLED, 3RB led and 1 warm white led mounted 6" above the water with no lenses. Additionally the fuge has a 90W equivalent CF bulb, 5000K mounted at one end shining across.

I transferred a big handfull of chaeto from another tank into the fuge and i have been watching it slowly turn from darn green to pale green/yellow in the course of a week. Also I added balls of green turf algae that has infested my display to my fuge in an attempt to get it established there instead but it is fading in color as well.

The fuge is slow flowing at about 300gph, with good water circulation. Bare bottom (no sand at all).

Lighting has been on 24/7 in an attempt to "jump start" the fuge. Could 24/7 lighting be inhibiting growth or is the algae in my display still outcompeteing my fuge for nutrients?

I am manually removing the truf algae from the display to try to help the fuge get nutrients.

Im stumped. Any and all insight welcomed. This is my first refugium.

 

[likefish]

My questions / concerns are:

1) how do i get a transfer of nutrients from the algae in my tanks to my refugium?

2) I would start carbon dosing but i am running with low nutrients now and dont want my corals to suffer any more color loss. thoughts on this?

3) The water supply to my fuge is from the pump not a tank overflow so i have "filtered" water going to the fuge. My thought was that this will remove dissolved organics and prevent an accumulation of detritus in the fuge that might cause future problems. Does this sound appropriate or will i starve the macor swith no "chunks of turd" to feed on?

4) I am trying to logic out this problem and its cause, all i can come up with is phosphates locked in my rock. I have removed most of the sand from my 120 (and done so slowly) thinking i just had nasty sand but this has provided no relief that i have noticed. Any other thoughts of where these nutrients are coming from ? My RO is 0 TDS (read on 2 different meters)

Any and all guidance appreciated!

 

[likefish]

HELP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Im considering dosing chlorine to get this fixed!

 

[raidendex]

Possibly not enough light for chaeto to compete. While I do not use red/blue combination that should work well, I do use a lot more led power. 16 xm-l u2 with 40 degree lenses mounted about a foot above the tank. They are run by 2.1 amp driver and dimmed just slightly.

Another issue is that algae in dt is healthy and established soaking up all available nutrients quickly before chaeto can get a chance . Blasting chaeto with more light than algae in dt and making sure it gets access to all the water volume at fast rate should allow it to establish itself and start growing. I really don't believe chaeto needs low flow for any reason, it's not delicate and you are just starving it by not allowing it access to whole water volume. Chaeto stuck on my power heads in the sump pushing over 3k gph looks as healthy as it can be

 

[GatorAlum05]

if your phosphates and nitrates are 0 as proclaimed, then why is there a rampage of algae?

maybe you should reduce your lighting period and decrease the intensity in your display, while increasing everything to the max in your refugium.

 

[likefish]

michael, what size refugium are you running those lights over?

I have been running a 90W equivalent CF bulb, 5000K bulb in addition to the LED's but the chaeto is fading...... Photoinhibition from too much light or too long a photoperiod or low nutrients? what is your guess?

I forgot my college zoology classes. Chlorophyl has a photosynthesis period and then a rest period? ATP synthesis nonsense.... blah blah blah, or is that not a requirement in a refugium?

Also what light cycle do you run your fuge at? I remember it being very healthy!

Very frustrated with this! No fun

By the way.... that 180 of yours is looking great! I have been following along.

 

[likefish]

if your phosphates and nitrates are 0 as proclaimed, then why is there a rampage of algae?

I asked you first buddy! any suggestions?

maybe you should reduce your lighting period and decrease the intensity in your display, while increasing everything to the max in your refugium.

i do like that suggestion. I have recently reduced the intensity of my display lights to cope with the lower nutrients. Possible it will slow algae growth as well.

Even the flame tip macro i got from you is doing little to nothing and has lost some of its color. The tank water is pretty clean but the algae if feeding on something!!!!

 

[discocarp]

How are your RODI filters? Just a thought...

As for a 0 reading of phosphates while you have algae, it is because the algae is locking it up into biomass as quickly as it is being produced.

 

[novicereef]

Refugium helped me big time. I had algae issue that turned my tank green until I added chaetos with proper light. Now I dedicate 1/2 of my sump for chaetos (about 12 gal of refugium). For light, I use 32w CFL growlight (hydrofarm on amazon), running 24 hrs/day. The top of chaetos has pale green color growing. I remove about 2 gals of chaetos every 2-3 weeks. I used LED, 6500k CFL before but not as much growth as hydrofarm growlight.

 

[likefish]

How are your RODI filters? Just a thought...

As for a 0 reading of phosphates while you have algae, it is because the algae is locking it up into biomass as quickly as it is being produced.

2 diff TDS meters read 0 on my RO water. replaced my DI resin a while back.... dont think its the RO

 

[likefish]

Refugium helped me big time. I had algae issue that turned my tank green until I added chaetos with proper light. Now I dedicate 1/2 of my sump for chaetos (about 12 gal of refugium). For light, I use 32w CFL growlight (hydrofarm on amazon), running 24 hrs/day. The top of chaetos has pale green color growing. I remove about 2 gals of chaetos every 2-3 weeks. I used LED, 6500k CFL before but not as much growth as hydrofarm growlight.

thanks for the recommendation. I would liek to avoid CF bulbs if possible but I will keep this one in mind. How high above the fuge do you have it mounted.. Can you snap a picture?

Also what combo of LED's were you using before switching to the bulb you use now?

 

[novicereef]

light is about 7-8 inches off the water level.
LED was Par38 mixed blue white

 

[raidendex]

I light 24 by 24 area with 6 hours of down time during the day.

 

[eg8r210]

Your nitrates and phosphates are low because the algae is soaking it up. I doubt seriously that they are low because your nutrient export is keeping up. I have always heard the light cycle for the fuge would be the same length as your DT except it would be run at alternate time. When the DT lights are out the Fuge lights turn on. I believe this was done to stablilize pH but I really don't have any idea if that is true or not.

If you want to test whether you have enough light you could always block off a portion of the fuge and make it smaller and move all your light over only the portion where the algae is at. This should intensify it in a smaller area. I used a 5 gallon bucket with one shop bulb and that was more than enough to grow cheato.

My suggestion would be to rip out at much algae from the DT as possible. Pull all rock possible and soak in H202 to kill algae. Once you have the DT as clear as possibly through manual means then attempt the fuge again. This is only my opinion, but if you are getting zero or low numbers for nitrate and phosphate then the algae in the DT is outcompeting your fuge. By removing as much as possible and starting as clean as possible I believe you might give the fuge a chance of growing.

 

[KnownStrangeR]

For me its the areas of lowest flow where my algae seems to thrive, your not experiencing the algae in the smaller tanks more so then the larger ones?

 

[GatorAlum05]

Your dragon tip is bleaching not because of lack of nutrients but rather too much white lights. They will get the orange tip back with your blue lights. Seriously think you should lower your whites intensity and period in your displays.

 

[plyle02]

I can offer this:
1. Do not start c-source dosing while nutrients are low
2. Sounds like nutrients are laden in rock or sand, this is fueling algae growth, I would use a turkey baster and blast rock work, possible clean sand bed, then do a larger than normal water change, and as suggested above, you can still get low readings on NO3 and PO4 while it being abundant enough for algae growth.
3. I recently slowed the flow of water through my sump, it amazed me how much better my skimmer performed. This was an oversight by me in plenty of my setups, as I wanted a large turnover rate, however, my skimmer did not have enough contact time. A thought...
4. It could be bryopsis, which is capable of thriving in low nutrient conditions, research it, then check magnesium and possibly up your dosage.
5. What type of test kits are you using on NO3 and PO4, if not a Hannah for PO4, and quality, lets say Salifert for example for NO3, maybe you are not as low as you think you are, just a thought...
6. What type of lighting on the display, I know when t5's for example get old, usually unwanted algae growth occurs. Also, look into doing a lights out for 2-3 days once every couple of months to starve out algae, I have done this with no ill effects.
7. As I have learned from my mistakes, don't have a knee jerk type reaction, take your time, nothing good comes quickly in this hobby. Be ready with a toothbrush, run a siphon off a hose from the maintank directly into your filter sock and start scrubbing and sucking all you can comfortably get to, I do this every few days on my display, as I run barebottom and do not like the detritus build up on the floor of my tank.

Sorry for rambling, but these are some things that come to mind...
Best of Luck!

 

[likefish]

I light 24 by 24 area with 6 hours of down time during the day.

Thanks again Michael, sounds like I have about 2/3 of what you are running and I have no lenses on my on LED's.

Your nitrates and phosphates are low because the algae is soaking it up. I doubt seriously that they are low because your nutrient export is keeping up. I have always heard the light cycle for the fuge would be the same length as your DT except it would be run at alternate time. When the DT lights are out the Fuge lights turn on. I believe this was done to stablilize pH but I really don't have any idea if that is true or not.

If you want to test whether you have enough light you could always block off a portion of the fuge and make it smaller and move all your light over only the portion where the algae is at. This should intensify it in a smaller area. I used a 5 gallon bucket with one shop bulb and that was more than enough to grow cheato.

My suggestion would be to rip out at much algae from the DT as possible. Pull all rock possible and soak in H202 to kill algae. Once you have the DT as clear as possibly through manual means then attempt the fuge again. This is only my opinion, but if you are getting zero or low numbers for nitrate and phosphate then the algae in the DT is outcompeting your fuge. By removing as much as possible and starting as clean as possible I believe you might give the fuge a chance of growing.

I like the idea about testing fuge bulbs. Pulling the rocks and soaking in peroxide is not an option, the design of my rockwork prevents it and I have colonies of encrusted corals. I wish I was still in the beginning phase I would rescape the entire system with cured new rock and rescape for better water flow! I am currently manually removing what I can on a regular basis.

For me its the areas of lowest flow where my algae seems to thrive, your not experiencing the algae in the smaller tanks more so then the larger ones?

What I find pretty crazy is that my 120SPS tank is growing turf/green algae and the 60 cube is growing a brown filamentous algae! The nutrients are there somewhere!!!! Ill be taking water to top shelf this weekend to have them test with their salifet kits. High flow and low flow areas are equally affected. My 120 SPS tank has pretty insane flow with 600gph through a sea swirl, 2 WP 60 and a sicce 1600 on a wave timer.

Your dragon tip is bleaching not because of lack of nutrients but rather too much white lights. They will get the orange tip back with your blue lights. Seriously think you should lower your whites intensity and period in your displays.

dragon tip has been moved and photoperiods have been reduced as well as reduced the intensity of my RB LED's.

I can offer this:
1. Do not start c-source dosing while nutrients are low
agree
2. Sounds like nutrients are laden in rock or sand, this is fueling algae growth, I would use a turkey baster and blast rock work, possible clean sand bed, then do a larger than normal water change, and as suggested above, you can still get low readings on NO3 and PO4 while it being abundant enough for algae growth.
Blowing off ther rock has always been part of weekly maint. but I fear the algae coverage is trapping more detritus and only adding to the problem. I have removed (slowly by siphon) about 1/2 of my sand bed. I feared this was the cause of the nutrient sink.
3. I recently slowed the flow of water through my sump, it amazed me how much better my skimmer performed. This was an oversight by me in plenty of my setups, as I wanted a large turnover rate, however, my skimmer did not have enough contact time. A thought...
This one cant be changed at the moment. I do like the train of thought though!
4. It could be bryopsis, which is capable of thriving in low nutrient conditions, research it, then check magnesium and possibly up your dosage.
I have battled bryopsis before and won with Kent Tech-M. This stuff is different.
5. What type of test kits are you using on NO3 and PO4, if not a Hannah for PO4, and quality, lets say Salifert for example for NO3, maybe you are not as low as you think you are, just a thought...
I test PO4 with a hanna high range and have never seen a reading other than 0.0, I have an outdated freshwater NO3 nitrate test kit. Ill be headed to a LFS this weekend to confirm my readings and possible but a slifert depending on what results I get.
6. What type of lighting on the display, I know when t5's for example get old, usually unwanted algae growth occurs. Also, look into doing a lights out for 2-3 days once every couple of months to starve out algae, I have done this with no ill effects.
Scarred to do lights out with the corals looking pi$$ed like they are right now. It is my next step though if things don't change. T5 bulbs were changed in Nov (Buy my bulbs with the black Friday prices each year. Reminds me to change em and I can do it a bit cheaper!) I adjusted the times down a bit to adjust for new bulbs.
7. As I have learned from my mistakes, don't have a knee jerk type reaction, take your time, nothing good comes quickly in this hobby. Be ready with a toothbrush, run a siphon off a hose from the maintank directly into your filter sock and start scrubbing and sucking all you can comfortably get to, I do this every few days on my display, as I run barebottom and do not like the detritus build up on the floor of my tank.
Thank you for the no "knee jerk" reminder! Manual labor has keep the problem from taking over. Ill just keep it up until I find a resolution.

Sorry for rambling, but these are some things that come to mind...
Best of Luck!

Not rambling at all, thank you for taking the time to comment! Greatly appreciated!!