Need Help with a Store Set Up

[LizardKing]

Im not sure this is the best place for this post, if not Im sorry.

I own operate a pet shop and have recently expanded into fresh and saltwater fish. I have not had any fish experience in over 20 years, and dont have a fish guy to help at the store yet. I have had a number of knowledgeable people help out in a few ways, but Im running into a number of different ideas on the same problem.

My basic question is this. As a customer do you avoid shops that run low levels of copper in their fish only systems?

I run "mars" systems at the shop, so I have two sections for salt currently. One is a 3 bank system, the other is a two bank system. I also have a single bank unit with a chiller that is currently used for feeder fish that Im considering turning into a salt system as well.

A few people are telling me to run the 3 bank system free of inverts, rock, and corals and run copper safe in that system at ALL TIMES.

Other people are telling me to quarantine the more iffy species upon arrival, and NOT to run copper in any systems as many customers would not want to buy from a tank running copper.

My idea is a small compromise. I am considering turning the individual feeder system into a salt system that constantly runs a low copper level. I would then lable the tank as such so my customers would be aware of the copper in the water.

My thinking is this would give me a place to put more problem prone species upon arrival. I would hope that after they have been in store for approx 2 weeks, I could then aclimate them to one of the other two systems that are not running copper.

I plan to run a few quarantine tanks for obviously sick animals, but from what Ive seen on only one fish order, sick fish are a fact of life at the resale level. Not to mention that some fish come in looking fine, then quickly go down hill. However I cannot afford in to set up quarantines for every single fish that ever comes into the store at this time (both in terms of space, and money for setting up and operating the tanks). Ive also been told by many people that often a store leve quarantine becomes nothing more then a place for fish to die.

So again, I guess copper or no copper that is my question.

 

[GreshamH]

Those that tell you not to run copper, have no retail experence Run copper, or face the wrathe of ich. Q'ing is an option, but honestly, copper is a better solution for a store in the long run.

Don't run "low" copper, but rather, a correct dose. Running it low, won't do you any good.


It's a question of time and money, like you said. You don't have the time, now money, to waste on a Q system, if your doing this K solo.

 

[jiggly75]

I'd run copper in the fish only section. And no copper in the reef section if you plan on having corals in stock.

 

[GreshamH]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8165263#post8165263 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by jiggly75
I'd run copper in the fish only section. And no copper in the reef section if you plan on having corals in stock.

Guess I should have stated that as well. I was just going with that being implied

 

[LizardKing]

Thats kinda funny, the "dont have retail experience part" that is.

The two people that are telling me the most NOT to run copper, one owns a pet shop going on 18 years, another going on 15 years, and the last is the old fish guy at what used to be the best run marine shop in town.

One says only treat when needed, the other says he never treats, and the last says a mix of both almost.

This really leads me back to thinking that running copper on atleast what is now the feeder section, may be my best option. Then new fish can go into the copper section, and slowly make their way to the non copper section. Any arguments why this would be a bad option?

Obviously no inverts or live in the copper section. And of course I would do proper doses, as I dont wish to build a resistant strain of anything.

Gotta love the fish world, a million ways to do the same thing.

 

[LizardKing]

By the way, before its said, No I dont believe the two other shop owners telling me NOT to run copper is them trying to set me up to fail. Both of them run shops in other states, and my business has no effect on thiers. Thats why I truely put alot of weight into their opinions.

 

[RichardS]

Don't use off the shelf copper like coppersafe, cupramine, etc.

Just buy some copper sulphate and mix your own solution. It's much cheaper and more effective. Also pays to be accurate in dosing and maintaining a correct level. I really recommend you get a copper colorimeter. I use a Lamontte DC1200 which you can find here...
http://www.pollardwater.com/

This way you can accurately maintain your copper levels between .15 - .17 ppm which is effective and tolerated well by even copper sensitive species. Hobbyist grade copper test kits can easily be off by .05ppm which can be the difference in either being effective or killing copper sensitive species. It's well worth it and you will recoupe your $ quickly in reduced losses. I also use copper on most fw tanks as well and it has reduced losses greatly. Not on planted tanks of course and most loaches don't seem to like copper too much so I keep some non copper tanks around.

You will find that if your livestock is healthy then you won't hear negative comments about using copper.

I can give you the formula for the solution I mix if you like as well as an exel spreadsheet for easily calculating the dosage.

 

[jon575]

Just a suggestion.... you can also lower the salinity level to 1.020 - 1.021. I worked for a LFS for many years and before they lowered the salinity, they used cupramine. Now i dont think they use it only in the hospital tanks for the few that do break out. Also, they feed with garlic as well. There is no real study that it in fact works, but so far it has infact have had positive outcomes for keeping ICH at bay.

 

[LizardKing]

Richard

Id love to get the pdf your talking about. As for the copper sulfate, where does one get that, a chemical supply store?

 

[RichardS]

I got 2 lbs several years ago from www.hdltd.com but you can search online and find many sources for it perhaps cheaper. I use it all the time and haven't made a dent in the lbs yet so don't buy more than 1 or two lbs.

PM me your email address and I will send the exel spreadsheet.

What you want for the formula I use is copper sulfate pentahydrate also called bluestone. It is a light blue powder. I'm told there are also copper sulfate granules which are well copper colored. The granules would yield a different solution than the bluestone.

 

[LizardKing]

"ENVIRONMENTAL HAZARDS

Copper Sulfate is toxic to fish and aquatic organisms. If product is spilled, comply with Federal, State and local regulations on reporting spills. Refer to Old Bridge Material Safety Sheet and labels for further details"

Ok I did a bit of searching for the bluestone, and above is one of the things I found. I assume this is in high doses?

Also they mention its used as a supplement in animal feeds, as such I assume I may be able to find it locally at one of the many feed store or tractor supplies? I checked the link you gave and didnt see anything there.

Also that meter you gave a link to, it didnt mention copper, rather flouride I think. Am I missing something there?

 

[LizardKing]

Ok, I found the copper test, however I see their is a low range and a high range meter. What one would be more geared towards aquarium use? Seems the high range would be more affordable in the long run as the reagent for it is about a third the cost of the low range test.

 

[RichardS]

You would want the high range on the Hanna colorimeter. I have the Lamonte Colorimeter which is a little more expensive but the reagent is pretty cheap. Although the Hanna one looks to be a little more accurate. Just search "copper" on their site and you'll see them.

Yes copper is very toxic to fish if the levels are too high. It's a pretty narrow line between killing the parasites and killing the fish. This is why you want to test and accurately dose to a specific range. You should never "guess" how much copper to add to a tank.

Off the shelf copper products are fine for hobbyists doing an occassional treatment on a fish. If your going to run copper on everytime you get new fish (probably weekly) then you don' want to be counting drops and hoping you don't get the copper levels to high.

 

[Fade]

Why not run Hypo I try not to buy fish that has been in copper if I know about it IMHO I think copper maskes problems not help them. Certain fish will not fair well in copper.
All the LFS in are area run there Salinite at 1.017 but one they run copper and I have never had luck buying fish from there.

 

[LizardKing]

What is Hypo?

Sorry as I said Im new to the fish hobby, so Im still learing everyday. In the reptile world hypo referes to reduction in pigmentation (usually red) but I am going to assume that doesnt apply here.

Ive been warned by a few people allready not to mess with lowering my salinity. Not to mention a strongh chorus of no's to the copper idea. However a couple of people are saying atleast do the single unit copper as a introduction to the shop for the first two weeks. This is the idea Im leaning towards the most at this time.

Still waiting on that pdf Richard, not to be pushy Im sure your a busy man. Im only home right now for a minute myself before I go put in a good 6 hour night cleaning rodent bedding.

 

[Fade]

Hypo is lowering your salinity and I have had luck treating parasits with it more than copper.

 

[RichardS]

Sorry I haven't had a chance to clean up a version of the spreadsheet for you so it will make some sense when you look at it. At work all day and sick too, someday's it is not so fun owning a store. It is a Microsoft Excel spreadsheet not a pdf. I'll get it to you tomorrow.

We used to rely soley on hyposalinity @ 1.010 but still would get problems with ick occasionally and have to treat them. My routine now is a 5-10 minute fw bath upon arrival and then copper @ .15 - .17 ppm for 4-5 days. We rarely have any problems at all now. The freshwater bath is to primarily to remove flukes and some other types of parasites that can show up and give you problems. Copper won't help with some of these but the fw baths remove them effectively and keep them out of your systems.

Some fish are pretty resistant to most parasites. Things like gobies, dragonets, basslets, fairy wrasses and some others I do not fw dip or run copper on. Tangs, angels, butterflies will give you most of the problems with parasites, mainly ick. Mostly tangs and especially Hippo's and any tang with Powder for a first name. So I always put the "icky" stuff in systems where I do run copper and the safer species go wherever except not in my coral tanks. We still use hypo on the tanks where the more disease prone stuff goes, along with copper.

I can't think of any species that has not tolerated hyposalinity well. So not much risk in lowering your salinity IMO. Actually I have heard more people complain about having to acclimate from a lower salinity than those concerned about copper.

 

[LizardKing]

I understand the delays in responces quite well. Its very difficult to run a shop, no doubt about it.

You mention the fresh dip upon arrival, and that brings up a good point I had been thinking about. Ive asked a few people about doing fresh dips before putting them into my system, and most had said it was going to add stress on allready stressed fish, and I may be better off waiting a couple of days.

However to be honest my thinking is to do it upon arrival like your saying. One this will keep the dirty stuff down or out before it hits my system, and two if a fish is allready so stressed that the fresh dip is going to kill it, well why not kill it while you still have the 24 hour guarantee. Seems to me that if a simple short fresh dip is enough added stress to kill the fish, well it was likely going to die within 48 hours anyways. Maybe this way Id catch them on the wholesalers time rather then mine. That said I havent had the chance to test anyones "guarantees" yet as Ive only ordered one time with both suppliers Ive used. Guess that test comes on the next order.

Any opinions here would be more then interesting to me.

 

[Ooulophilia]

I would advise using copper. As for FW dipping you may want to think about a one time use of formalin added to the system every time you get new fish in as an alternative, it can "shock" anything hanging about on the fish (there are fish that don't like formalin, just as there are fish that don't like copper so be careful). Definatly invest in a good copper test kit (Lamont), but you will find after a while you will be able to tell by looking at the fish when it is running low.
Get the book Advanced Marine Aquarium Techniques by Jay F. Hemdal. It has a copper sensitivity chart that corresponds different levels to different species of fish. I found it invaluble in deciding which fish to put in the medicated system and which in the non med system.
As for hyposalinity, for it to really be effective you have to push it all the way down to 1.015, and IMO that is more steressful that copper unless you have LOTS of time to acclimate them down.
Good luck.

 

[hahnmeister]

I would not use copper. Also, dont use lowered salinity. While these methods lower the problems you might have, they often weaken the fish and make it that much harder for the buyer to keep the fish healthy when he/she tries to take the fish home.

Instead, run a healthy system and buy from a distributor that has healthy stock.

There is a LFS near me that has all of its fish running at 1.010 salinity. The fish all stress out when I try to acclimate them. The other LFS uses copper in its fish systems. Many of these fish spend a long time in these systems, and in the long term, the copper destroys the immune system of the fish. The fish get ich as soon as I try to introduce them to a reef... their bodies are used to having copper, and have a hard time without.

Im all for QT and treatment of new fish that are suspected of being sick, but nothing constant or long term. Keep the fish in what they are meant to be kept in when the customer takes the fish home. There are a few other LFSs by me that do this, and the results are much better for the customer.... the fish are very healthy and active. The transition for them is much less stressful.