Need Help with a Store Set Up
- Thread starter LizardKing
- Start date
ReefRascals
New member
tgreene - I'm not trying to flex my muscles as it appears you are, but copper indeed occurs naturally in seawater.
Copper does not accumalate in a fishes excrement, or whatever you think it does. It is actually flushed across the mucous membranes, including the gills. But even if it was in the fishes 'urine', what do you think the dilution factor would be? You only medicate a system at about 3-5 ppm in the first place.
I will assure you that you have purchased fish that went through a system containing copper, if not at the store you purchased it at then at the wholesaler they purchased it from.
Again, go with what works for you. And I wish you contunued success. But realize that you are not everybody, and any good store will look out for all of it's customers...as well as themselves. The fish deserve that much.
Copper does not accumalate in a fishes excrement, or whatever you think it does. It is actually flushed across the mucous membranes, including the gills. But even if it was in the fishes 'urine', what do you think the dilution factor would be? You only medicate a system at about 3-5 ppm in the first place.
I will assure you that you have purchased fish that went through a system containing copper, if not at the store you purchased it at then at the wholesaler they purchased it from.
Again, go with what works for you. And I wish you contunued success. But realize that you are not everybody, and any good store will look out for all of it's customers...as well as themselves. The fish deserve that much.
tgreene
Reefer
I'm not flexing anything other than sound, logical advice in regards to sustaining the natural salinity levels in order to alleviate UNNECESSARY stress.
Medicating and dosing does not resolve issues, it merely masks them, much akin to putting a Band-Aid on an Arterial wound.
Also, as you've pointed out, if there is so much Copper being used along the way, then there should not be a need for it in the end. Conversely, if healthy livestock is bought from high-quality wholesalers that closely monitor and regulate how their specimens are captured, then there should not be a problem.
Out of 3 pages filled with input from many LFS owners and operatos, I've yet to read a single post in regards to using Garlic to get rid of Ich, yet we all know that it not only works, but aids in building immune systems. It was mentioned that any Tang with "Powder" in the name will be an Ich magnet, but again, Garlic feedings have never been mentioned.
Furthermore, being that they are aggressive cannabalistic scavengers, Damsels are about the worst fish that an LFS could ever sell, but they do so because they are cheap and colorful. Very few serious reefkeepers will ever have anything to do with them, as they are a beginners fish, that carry a ton of diseases (which is why you'll ALWAYS see a few weaker ones getting picked on). Hell, 98% of the Damsel posts here and elsewhere are in regards to all of the creative ways to get rid of the mean little bastards!
I never owned or worked at an LFS; but I do maintain reef tanks, run the local reef club, consult on specific issues, have designed and/or re-designed numerous reef systems, and have invented reefkeeping products that are currently on the market.
Basically I'm just a nobody, but a nobody that knows I'm doing.
-Tim
Medicating and dosing does not resolve issues, it merely masks them, much akin to putting a Band-Aid on an Arterial wound.
Also, as you've pointed out, if there is so much Copper being used along the way, then there should not be a need for it in the end. Conversely, if healthy livestock is bought from high-quality wholesalers that closely monitor and regulate how their specimens are captured, then there should not be a problem.
Out of 3 pages filled with input from many LFS owners and operatos, I've yet to read a single post in regards to using Garlic to get rid of Ich, yet we all know that it not only works, but aids in building immune systems. It was mentioned that any Tang with "Powder" in the name will be an Ich magnet, but again, Garlic feedings have never been mentioned.
Furthermore, being that they are aggressive cannabalistic scavengers, Damsels are about the worst fish that an LFS could ever sell, but they do so because they are cheap and colorful. Very few serious reefkeepers will ever have anything to do with them, as they are a beginners fish, that carry a ton of diseases (which is why you'll ALWAYS see a few weaker ones getting picked on). Hell, 98% of the Damsel posts here and elsewhere are in regards to all of the creative ways to get rid of the mean little bastards!
I never owned or worked at an LFS; but I do maintain reef tanks, run the local reef club, consult on specific issues, have designed and/or re-designed numerous reef systems, and have invented reefkeeping products that are currently on the market.
Basically I'm just a nobody, but a nobody that knows I'm doing.
-Tim
ReefRascals
New member
Lol...ok.
tgreene
Reefer
ReefRascles: It's pretty obvious that you've either completely missed my points, or are simply chosen to dismiss them...
The fact of the matter is, there absolutely are ways to do things that do not require invasive medications that treat entire systems.
Again, increase the salinity to what it is in their natural environment, not what the box of salt says it should be (which allows for a safe buffer zone of +/- 3ppm to protect the manufacturer, not the specimen).
Don't rush into things!!! -- LK stated that he set the system up before having the proper testing equipment, skimmers, refractometers (swing-arm hydrometers are consistantly off by 2-3 points, thus a reading of 1.023 is generally 1.020-021, yet even knowing this, EVERY store continues to sell them.), electronic monitors and controllers with backups to validate and guarantee the accuracy of the readings.
My favorite Reef store opened for business nearly a full year after setting up their tanks. They did this to ensure that they were able to create a name for themselves by only supplying the best of the best in regards to livestock. When new stock arrived, it was closely inspected, and anything was was even remotely suspicious went into holding tanks that were off limits for a couple of weeks. They did do a number of various treatments to specific fish via dips, but never treated a system, and never used Copper. This shop owner ran each and every tank as if it was a reef display in his own home, and it didn't cost him anything more to do so. What it did do, was create a cult-like following with those of us that got to know him and how he does things!
The fact of the matter is, there absolutely are ways to do things that do not require invasive medications that treat entire systems.
Again, increase the salinity to what it is in their natural environment, not what the box of salt says it should be (which allows for a safe buffer zone of +/- 3ppm to protect the manufacturer, not the specimen).
Don't rush into things!!! -- LK stated that he set the system up before having the proper testing equipment, skimmers, refractometers (swing-arm hydrometers are consistantly off by 2-3 points, thus a reading of 1.023 is generally 1.020-021, yet even knowing this, EVERY store continues to sell them.), electronic monitors and controllers with backups to validate and guarantee the accuracy of the readings.
My favorite Reef store opened for business nearly a full year after setting up their tanks. They did this to ensure that they were able to create a name for themselves by only supplying the best of the best in regards to livestock. When new stock arrived, it was closely inspected, and anything was was even remotely suspicious went into holding tanks that were off limits for a couple of weeks. They did do a number of various treatments to specific fish via dips, but never treated a system, and never used Copper. This shop owner ran each and every tank as if it was a reef display in his own home, and it didn't cost him anything more to do so. What it did do, was create a cult-like following with those of us that got to know him and how he does things!
LizardKing
New member
Sadly I didnt/dont have a year to let things settle in and figure them out for sue. (Dont take that as an argumentative statement, just a fact).
I do on the other hand have a year to wait to get things right. I make my living off the reptiles/rodents we sell at the shop. This will not change. As such I am lucky to have the leway to go slow and try and get things right.
However I am blessed/cursed with friends that may or may not know what they are talking about. Sadly when we first got the tanks running (after about 3 months of building the space, waiting for delivery of all the systems, ect) I allowed a friend to talk me into getting things going.
As I said I have zero salt experience before 6 weeks ago. Hadnt even studied the situation. This put me behind the ball as a shop owner, bigtime. So I decided to trust in others opinions, assumeing he knew what he was doing (and he may very well, just seems everyone knows what "they" are doing).
He talked me into the idea that , empty tanks were costing me money. He encouraged me to order in "X" fish to get the "buzz" about the store started. He told me that by useing bio spira I could instantly cycle the tanks, and the fish I was getting were going to be just fine.
Well obviously this didnt happen. And that mixed with my ignorance of products (and their quality or lack of) led to the poor testing equipment. I am now in the process of fixing theese problems as best as I can.
Ive spent over 20g trying to set this area up, and have recouped nearly none of it, yet. As such its getting tighter and tighter to try and man up extra money untill I see a bit of a return. Untill then, I hope by going slow, and reading as much as I can I will do better in the future.
Is my shop ideal, not by any measure. Is it acceptable, Im not sure yet. The same thing happened with the freshwater department, when I set it up at the same time. We did the bio spira to "cycle" and still ended up cycleing with the fish instead. High numbers, die offs, ect all occoured.
However I have since pulled in a second and third freshwater order, and have lost less in the last week with them, then I did in any one day at the start. Ive even had a few days of zero deaths, with over 1000 freshwater fish on hand. I figure this has to be at minnimum and acceptable level.
Im hopeing that the saltwater section goes the same direction. I have a TON of pods in the system, and Im starting to see coraline growth. My algea blooms have gone to very little, and everything seems to be doing very well. I hope this month of learning will pay off. Not to mention installing theese monster euro reef skimmers that arrived yesterday.
Honestly , and sadly, this experience was likely a good one for me in a sick kind of way. Now I have experience many of the problems first hand my customers will be dealing with. I hope I remeber them, and am able to pass them on when dealing with helping other people new to fish start up. And soon as I can afford someone, I hope to hire a good fish guy. Ive searched around locally, and so far I cant afford anyone Id trust, and dont trust anyone I can afford. Untill then I guess its many more 16 hour days for me. I just hope Im comfortable with the systems before Im blessed with my second child (both will be under a year old then also..LOL) in Feb. Once this happens, I loose my wifes help at the shop, and likely any tiny bits of sleep I currently get.
I do on the other hand have a year to wait to get things right. I make my living off the reptiles/rodents we sell at the shop. This will not change. As such I am lucky to have the leway to go slow and try and get things right.
However I am blessed/cursed with friends that may or may not know what they are talking about. Sadly when we first got the tanks running (after about 3 months of building the space, waiting for delivery of all the systems, ect) I allowed a friend to talk me into getting things going.
As I said I have zero salt experience before 6 weeks ago. Hadnt even studied the situation. This put me behind the ball as a shop owner, bigtime. So I decided to trust in others opinions, assumeing he knew what he was doing (and he may very well, just seems everyone knows what "they" are doing).
He talked me into the idea that , empty tanks were costing me money. He encouraged me to order in "X" fish to get the "buzz" about the store started. He told me that by useing bio spira I could instantly cycle the tanks, and the fish I was getting were going to be just fine.
Well obviously this didnt happen. And that mixed with my ignorance of products (and their quality or lack of) led to the poor testing equipment. I am now in the process of fixing theese problems as best as I can.
Ive spent over 20g trying to set this area up, and have recouped nearly none of it, yet. As such its getting tighter and tighter to try and man up extra money untill I see a bit of a return. Untill then, I hope by going slow, and reading as much as I can I will do better in the future.
Is my shop ideal, not by any measure. Is it acceptable, Im not sure yet. The same thing happened with the freshwater department, when I set it up at the same time. We did the bio spira to "cycle" and still ended up cycleing with the fish instead. High numbers, die offs, ect all occoured.
However I have since pulled in a second and third freshwater order, and have lost less in the last week with them, then I did in any one day at the start. Ive even had a few days of zero deaths, with over 1000 freshwater fish on hand. I figure this has to be at minnimum and acceptable level.
Im hopeing that the saltwater section goes the same direction. I have a TON of pods in the system, and Im starting to see coraline growth. My algea blooms have gone to very little, and everything seems to be doing very well. I hope this month of learning will pay off. Not to mention installing theese monster euro reef skimmers that arrived yesterday.
Honestly , and sadly, this experience was likely a good one for me in a sick kind of way. Now I have experience many of the problems first hand my customers will be dealing with. I hope I remeber them, and am able to pass them on when dealing with helping other people new to fish start up. And soon as I can afford someone, I hope to hire a good fish guy. Ive searched around locally, and so far I cant afford anyone Id trust, and dont trust anyone I can afford. Untill then I guess its many more 16 hour days for me. I just hope Im comfortable with the systems before Im blessed with my second child (both will be under a year old then also..LOL) in Feb. Once this happens, I loose my wifes help at the shop, and likely any tiny bits of sleep I currently get.
reef_doug
Premium Member
I would think using copper and UV on the fish side is a great idea. I for one like the fact that my LFS quarrantines their fish prior to sale and run copper.
The coral system obviously has no copper and no need for UV, infact UV is harmful to the water channel of beneficial bacteria for corals.
Only exception I can think of is clownfish... they don't tolerate copper very well and could possibly harm their reporductive systems. Many people seek clownfish in pairs for potential spawning. I would keep the clownfish on the coral system.
Good luck,
Doug
The coral system obviously has no copper and no need for UV, infact UV is harmful to the water channel of beneficial bacteria for corals.
Only exception I can think of is clownfish... they don't tolerate copper very well and could possibly harm their reporductive systems. Many people seek clownfish in pairs for potential spawning. I would keep the clownfish on the coral system.
Good luck,
Doug
LFS_worker
'ignoramus maximus'
Can you Point me to a link that poved this? Last time I heard there was no proof of this and that is was actually a falacy!! Thanks in advance
Brian
LFS_worker
'ignoramus maximus'
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8363473#post8363473 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by tgreene
Hate to dissappoint, but I only run reactors, so that I have full control over everything that goes into my system!
Hate to disappoint but you infact ARE adding copper to your reef.... Not only that but ..
aluminum
arsenic
barium
cadmium
lead
lithium
well anyways the list goes on and on. Dont always assume that you have 100% control over your reef, that only makes you look bad.
In no way do I mean to belittle you on any level, My intent here is to attempt to enlighten as we all seek enlightenment, thus the Garlic post
Brian
ReefRascals
New member
Let me grab my pop corn...this is gonna be good.
I know the debate on whether to use copper or not will continue forever but that is so incredibly inaccurate I can't help but say something.
Everytime you do a water change and everytime you feed your fish you are adding some copper to your tank. There is absolutely no way a fish is going pee out copper and cause problems. In this article you can see some numbers of how much copper is contained in common foods, it's an essential nutrient....
http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2003-04/rhf/feature/index.php
When talking about treating fish with copper the discussion is about free copper levels and no fish is going to pee out free copper. And PLEASE don't stop feeding your fish for fear of copper getting in your tank.
LizardKing
New member
Update
Update
Well we have gotten in a few orders, approx 50 fish and a decent amount of soft corals in the last week or two. This time things seem to be going very well.
We did a large water change prior to the arrival of last weeks order, and got the euro reef skimmers going. The skimmers are sucking out large amounts of nasty and I think should go a long ways towards better water quality.
We lost about 6 fish out of the last two orders, most within the first 3 days of arrival. Only two were seen feeding prior to passing (a damsel and a spotted hawk). The other four were a pinapple trigger, two small puffers, and two very small lions. None of them were seen to eat. We also lost a pygmy hawk, but I believe it jumped tank as I didnt find it anywhere, and it was tanked alone.
Water tests are all coming up good, and as of yet nothing is getting treated. No signs of parisites or problems, even on the coral banded angel. I do however have a copper test on hand, and have not ruled it out as an option on atleast one system should the need arise.
Update
Well we have gotten in a few orders, approx 50 fish and a decent amount of soft corals in the last week or two. This time things seem to be going very well.
We did a large water change prior to the arrival of last weeks order, and got the euro reef skimmers going. The skimmers are sucking out large amounts of nasty and I think should go a long ways towards better water quality.
We lost about 6 fish out of the last two orders, most within the first 3 days of arrival. Only two were seen feeding prior to passing (a damsel and a spotted hawk). The other four were a pinapple trigger, two small puffers, and two very small lions. None of them were seen to eat. We also lost a pygmy hawk, but I believe it jumped tank as I didnt find it anywhere, and it was tanked alone.
Water tests are all coming up good, and as of yet nothing is getting treated. No signs of parisites or problems, even on the coral banded angel. I do however have a copper test on hand, and have not ruled it out as an option on atleast one system should the need arise.
castorpollux
New member
actually you can lower your salinity with fish to 1.016-1.019 and it will reduce stress significantly, just make sure that your customers know the acclimation process in regards to this. Working retail we did this consistently to lower the amount of problems even with our customers tanks.. (mushroom and polyps.. for the most part only.) , with my seahorse's I actually kept my tank at 1.017 specifically because of the parasitic problems they have... You can go significantly lower, I just don't think its a good idea personally... if you go any lower you might as well give freshwater dips... Hyposalinity to the rescue <a href="http://www.petsforum.com/personal/trevor-jones/hyposalinity.html">hyposalinity</a>
<a href="http://www.petsforum.com/personal/trevor-jones/hyposalinity.html">hyposalinity</a>fresh water dips
fresh water dips
If u were to fresh water dip new ariveals before aclamateing them to your tanks you would probably have about half of what u ordered by morning. There are good supplyers out there,that provide ich free fish.Your best preventive measure is 5ml of stress coat to five gallons of water,and a place where they have places to hide[small rocks clay pots etc,and good water quality.Never use the same net for two fish,and before yhe new arivals get there move fish around,leaving enough empty tanks for them.Fish that are added to tanks with fish already in them will surely face teritorial problems,adding to their stress.Last but not least,always run a 1 micron bagover a 50and feed fish often.well nourished fish are healthy fish.Treating fish with coper on a just in case method is a resipie for disaster.Keep a bucket of brine and plenty of nets.rince every net in water and than into the brine,always useing a fresh net.After fish have been in the store for a few days than start looking for signs of sick fish.
fresh water dips
If u were to fresh water dip new ariveals before aclamateing them to your tanks you would probably have about half of what u ordered by morning. There are good supplyers out there,that provide ich free fish.Your best preventive measure is 5ml of stress coat to five gallons of water,and a place where they have places to hide[small rocks clay pots etc,and good water quality.Never use the same net for two fish,and before yhe new arivals get there move fish around,leaving enough empty tanks for them.Fish that are added to tanks with fish already in them will surely face teritorial problems,adding to their stress.Last but not least,always run a 1 micron bagover a 50and feed fish often.well nourished fish are healthy fish.Treating fish with coper on a just in case method is a resipie for disaster.Keep a bucket of brine and plenty of nets.rince every net in water and than into the brine,always useing a fresh net.After fish have been in the store for a few days than start looking for signs of sick fish.
castorpollux
New member
just a note: i wasn't saying that he should freshwater dip every new arrival that would be way to stressful, i was just making a point about hyposalinity extremes
don't have much i can add about the merits of one method or another for the retail fish.
however, as a customer and marine fish keeper of nearly 20 years, i would like to tell the original poster that not only would i have no problem purchasing a fish that was kept in a copper system, but i think i would actually prefer it.
i have never expected an lfs to quarantine their livestock prior to sale. i barely have room and time to do that on my single aquarium, i shudder at the logistics of having to do that on the retail level.
however, as a customer and marine fish keeper of nearly 20 years, i would like to tell the original poster that not only would i have no problem purchasing a fish that was kept in a copper system, but i think i would actually prefer it.
i have never expected an lfs to quarantine their livestock prior to sale. i barely have room and time to do that on my single aquarium, i shudder at the logistics of having to do that on the retail level.
hahnmeister
In Memoriam
Most healthy stock that I get has never been QT'ed... EVER, and shouldnt need to be.
SWSaltwater
New member
Pesonally I run Hypo in my fish only system. It is at 1.016-1.017 depending on how much we bag/evap. I never touch copper as it is too easy for an employee to cross contaminate the systems. I don't even like keeping it avail in my store. I would rather treat fish with hypo and antibiotics. You do need to keep an eye on the wholesalers. I had a real bad shipment this summer, but if you stick to the better ones you will do great (unfortunately they are bit higher price). It is worth the higher price but it makes it hard to compete price wise with the net/petco since more and more wholesalers are putting up web sites. With the hypo system we usually only loose fish to jumping, and or fighting. Before that at normal salinity the occasional parasite did creep in. I go pick out my fish and coral from time to time. I recommend to make a trip to LA and take a good fish person. I seen a few places I would not go to the restroom in much less take a fish out the tanks.......
at my old shop, we ran a fish-only system and kept the salinity low (1.018) and also maintained consistent levels of copper sulfate. the results were much better than before we did the copper... it was an ich paradise before that! keep sand in some tanks for buffering and also for the fish that need it, and the rest keep bare-bottom with PVC pieces for caves so cleaning is easy. also, know that if you use ozone with copper sulfate, the ozone will oxidize the copper and precipitate, killing all your fish!!
Similar threads
