Need Help with a Store Set Up

[fantastic4]

LizardKing, my time at the LFS was only a partial year during my college days, please take that under consideration, so I do not have the experience as some of these other friendly RC members here are sharing with you. To help answer your question on the halides. The owner was pretty wise about the lights on the corals, when I first started working, I thought the lights were to high up, but I was impressed that he was willing to spend some up front money on lights vs vanilla HomeDepot lights that would surely shrivel up the majority of corals. Anyhow... the lights were about 3ish feet -- give or take 6 inches -- from the water. This I thought was not great strength for the corals, but the owner insisted... the reason, customers and feasibility of those lights getting in the way. With the halides that high up, they never posed a problem with the customers bumping into them, or us working on placing things or anything like that, I guess your point of splashing also. The corals were just fine, with the lights that high. We used pendants that were rectangular, not the round ones, if that helps any. No actinics at all. The wetdry was aged for many years before I was there, so biological filtration as far as nitrite removal was well taken care of. The UV system was pretty big, like 3 feet in length. The tanks for the corals were small, like 20-40 gallons on stands, they were all show tanks meant to sell the whole tank or any piece in it. We did lose many fresh water specimans on a daily basis, but I think this was just the law of averages when dealing with hundreds if not thousands of fresh water fish, tetras, gold fish, angels, discuss, and so on, we simply netted them out every morning and went about our day. The salt water tanks for fish only were very successful as far as fish longivity, we did not carry as many saltwater fish as we did fresh water, but the salt water fish just lived longer in any given tank. The freshwater tanks were all seperate and filtration was lousy with just an internal sponge filter in each one and 30% water change each week with tap, no wonder why they got sick? The owner recieved shipments of fish and while the delivery guy was inside, he used to eyeball each fish bag and reject fish that he deemed sick. The delivery guy would simply take those bags back. Not sure what setup he had with supplier. As for corals, he either hand selected them from whole importer or he ordered them and picked them up directly from LAX. Our motto was education and customer loyalty, we would re-phrase the acclimation process on all sales and we hand walked all great repeat coral buyers through all new specimans, I did not do this hand walking as I did not know very much about the corals, but it worked well with sales.

I wish you great luck, and I am so happy a LFS store owner is on RC researching the perfect setup, your efforts and sacrifice will surely show in your store with compliments on your tanks, livestock and your knowledge.

 

[LizardKing]

3ft seems rather far off, but I guess it would help alot with heat issues. Im just worried at 3ft the light would be more in the customers eyes then on the corals. I guess with a good shield that wouldnt be a problem. Man I wish I had thought about the lighting before I made the fake rock wall behind them. I hope I dont have to tear that out to install the ledge to mount the halides.

When I first set it out, I planned to just hang the lights from the ceeling over the tank. However since I have decided that would look bad, not to mention run the risk of people messing with the lights, getting burned, knocking them loose, ect.

 

[fantastic4]

LizardKing, those were my thoughts exactly, but in the end, the the employees and customers simply did not look up, I guess it's human nature to refrain from bright lights, and believe it or not, despite the 1,000 posts on keeping halides 6-10 inches from water, as far as the LFS was concerned, I did not notice anything detrimental to the corals, note the corals usually moved pretty fast.

on anouther note... Having worked at a LFS helping customers and wishing I was the one buying the awesome stuff which at the time I thought was being a super lotto millionaire as some purchases were more than my one week paycheck; the one thing I noted was that the owner was not friendly with customers, he was very defensive and argumentative with customers! anyhow, customers would talk to me as I rang them up and mentioned how they could not stand the owner and thanked me for the nice service. I always thought what a waste of potential future sales. Now that I am on the buying end and with humility able to afford anything I want, I am must admit I would rather pay a little more and buy from a LFS that has good stock and excellent friendly customer service than one that has good stock and is unfriendly. My suggestion to you... strive to hire help that are people lovers and treat all clients as VIP, word will spread quickly on your store.

Post updates on your suucess,

 

[hahnmeister]

One of the best LFSs I have ever stopped in was Capuccino Bay in Atlanta, GA.

Their systems are mostly corals/clams, but they do have a fish section as well, including a 500g FO tank right as you walk in. They run all their systems natural BTW.

But I mention them for lighting in particular. They have some very smart setups. The store consists of multiple acrylic vats... some 4'x4'x1'high, some 8'x4'x1'high... a few were 18" or 24" tall, but most were only 12" high. Anyways, over each tank, they have banks of halides... 20,000Ks in 400 and 1000 watts, many of which are on light moving tracks. 1000 watt 20,000Ks are a coral farmer's secret weapon. The tanks are all 'open-top', which is very smart.

See, the corals are all viewed from the top, so you will see better coloration (esp with 20,000Ks). Due to this, the lights are all about 3' from the top of the tank, but thats okay, since the tanks are only 12" deep, and with the eggcrate shelves and rock shelves to elevate the frags, colonies, and clams, the light might be far away from the surface, but only has a few inches in the water to get to the corals. Due to the height above the water though, one 1000 watt bulb covers more than a 4x4ft area. They even put mirrors along the back walls of these tanks at an angle so that you can see the corals in the mirrors as well, and Im sure that the mirrors help capture extra light and put it back into the tank.

For the inverts, they just use shallow trays (like mortar mixing trays) with bulkheads plumbed in for circulation. Some inverts are kept in drilled 5.5g and 10g tanks though, along with the fish, but most are in these trays which are easy to pick from and durable/cheap. The water in these trays is only about 4" deep, but who cares. It makes picking emerald crabs, snails, hermits, etc very fast and easy.

 

[hahnmeister]

They are in the process of going online right now so you can see pics... plus, I go there 2x a year when I visit the in-laws. They get some very very choice stuff in that I buy and ship back. Their high-end acros and clams are awesome.

/www.cappuccinobayaquarium.com

 

[LizardKing]

Yea, in the long run I hope to have some custom acrylic work done for my reef tanks at the shop. However untill I get my water legs so to speak, Im just going with common tank set ups. I figure once I know Im going to make it in the fish world, I can sell off the tanks/stands/ect and upgrade to something simmilar to what your talking about. Plus this gives me time to start working with acrylic, as Id like to see if I can build my own displays later on down the road.

Man 3 ft, I guess Im going to be working on tearing out and re hanging the fake rock wall behind the tanks. The ledge I was going to butt into is only about 12" off the top of the tanks. Then it goes to brick wall untill the ceeling. So Id have to get behind that fake rock wall, put a stud in so I have something to mount to. Wish I had thought about this before, but I was busy worrying about copper...LMAO.

Well off for a fun saturday of work.

 

[hahnmeister]

Well, if people arent going to be looking through the top, and you are going to be usingregular tank setups, then I would stick with 250wattDE bulbs 6" off the top. Pretty much set up the tanks like regular home reefs, just with pendants & open tops for ease of reaching.

Since Im more for the natural method of keeping, and suggest QT for new fish rather than constant exposure to copper (although with the fish only system, if you were to run it with copper 24/7, but at least keep the salinity normal, that wouldnt be as bad as both), Im also going to suggest this...

QT for corals. You should run a QTed section for new arrivals where you can abserve them for a week or two. Things you want to eliminate would be flatworms, red bugs, and nudibranchs in particular. If you let redbugs into your main coral system for instance, they could whipe out all your SPS. The only solution would be to dose the very large system with interceptor... a very expensive solution that will also kill most of your other inverts like crabs and shrimp. OR, perhaps keeping the corals seperate from the inverts would be a good idea just in case. Zoa eating nudis would also be a bad thing to pick up and let loose in the main system... eating all your zoas, or possibly going home with one of your customers.

 

[LFS_worker]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8336076#post8336076 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by fantastic4
Used to work at a LFS as well, the owner made me do everything with water plumbing... now it has been a while, but this is what I have seen from my eyes...

Fish Only Tanks
Copper is effective for keeping inventory alive, but seems to mask problems. It is not effective at elliminating ick or other ailments through and through, thus fish brought to clients home (aka stressed out fish, will be prone to develop issues).

Your kidding right?? Copper is highly toxic to invertibrae and fish in high doses (thus the need for good test kits). It is the most effective treatment for eliminating Crypt.. almost instantly. As well as a multitude of other parasites. I dont know of any problems that copper sulfate can mask?? One parasite I know of that is copper resistant is brooklynellia(sp) AKA clownfish disease, for this formalin is the best, but copper doesnot mask it. U.V. steralizers are great but in a system to get rid of all the parasites can take up to 30 days with out any new additions. can you go 30 days between your orders?

Copper will have Minimal effect on your biological system the bacteria that breakdown ammonia all the way to nitrate are bacteria. Stay away from antibiotics and all will be fine.
One of the systems at my employer is over 1000g and we run copper all the time. There are no water chemistry issues or biological issues.

Remember that this is a business where copper is extremely inexpensive and a $1500 steralizer is not cheep and not as effective or efficient(bulb replacement, energy cost). On a fish system with out copper deffiantely run a steralizer.

Good luck the systems look great !!! I love the decor of the store.
Brian

 

[ReefRascals]

Stores in my opinion should definately run copper in their fish systems. Copper has negative effects on a fishes auto immune system due to long term exposure, but external parasites can kill a fish in a few days. Also realize the Cu isn't effective on all parasites, and the biggest and most consistant problem I had in my store was with neobenedinia..a parasitic fluke. Copper doesn't touch it.

 

[LFS_worker]

Reefrascals : Formalin treatment works like a champ ...

B

 

[hahnmeister]

But its still agreed that long term exposure to copper is bad for fishes. Thats why I would suggest a sizable QT system with copper or individual setups for running other treatments like formalin (I agree, formalin is great stuff), and then moving the healthy fish into a regular saltwater system when they are done.

 

[reeferman]

as reef shoppe owner we dont run copper or hypo salinity,even out most sensitive fish are fine.good luck with the mars systems as these are not the best for sw fish,ive been in this a while and have tried the copper,no copper,etc.the best way for me is mature tanks with coral make a natural enviroment for fish,put them in a 10g with a piece of pipe to hide in and good luck.especialy in a mars system.

 

[ReefRascals]

Long term exposuse would presumably be much longer than a store would expect to have a fish on display for sale. Certainly though, if space allows, a system with no meds would be optimal.

And I don't know if I would refer to formalin as 'great stuff', as it is highly carcinogenic. But yes, effective stuff. Just don't want to give folks here the wrong idea.

 

[hahnmeister]

"Long term exposure would presumably be much longer than a store would expect to have a fish on display for sale"

I have LFSs near me that get in large orders, and many of the fish end up staying aroung for a loooong time. At Aquatics Unlimited, here in Milwaukee, they run their FO system with hypo and copper. They got in a shipment of baby yellow tangs over a year ago, and they are still in there. There must have been over 100 at first, but over time, they thinned out, and as they grew, the prices went up. They looked very healthy, so 6 months ago I bought one. It was on its side in the bag by the time I got it home, and the store wouldnt give me a replacement... a mere 30 minutes after I bought the fish. Others have reported similar from that store with their constant hypo/copper system. Nobody from WRS buys from there unless the fish happen to be in the invert systems (no copper/hypo).

OTOH, I bought from PET WORLD... a large warehouse style store that is a small franchise (3 stores in the area, and those are the only ones I know of). They are better than PetCo or PetsMart, but since they are so large and cost concious, they do cut some corners. Luckily there are some of the employees that really know what they are doing and keep the quality much better than the other minimum wage kids that work there. One of them keeps me up to date on their sales and when the new shipments get in. When I buy fish from the store's tanks, sometimes I get ich with them... but in general they seem to be okay. But the guy who works there will order what I am looking for if its available, and when it comes in, I can take it direct from the bag rather than from the store systems. I tested the water in the bags... no hypo, no copper, and the fish have all been by FAAAR the easiest to acclimate of any I have had. He gives me an extra discount now too because he knows me, and he figures if nothing else, I am doing him a favor because its one less fish he has to acclimate, and what he orders for me isnt going to take up showroom space, so he can order that much more. Tiger Jawfish, Yellow Tangs, Rainfordi Gobies, Swallowtail Angels, mandarins, basslets, etc. Every one has come out of their bag (that they have been in for 24hours often) ready to eat and healthy as ever. Never had any sicknesses either.

In contrast, if I dont pick up the fish right away, but instead buy from the stock that is 1-2weeks old from the FO system that is run with copper or whatever other chemcal treatment of the week they happen to use... the fish arent as healthy.

Ill stick with the natural kept fish.

 

[ReefRascals]

Certainly don't want to argue with your success. If you are happy, stick with it.

Hyposalinity has effects totally different on fish physiologically compared to copper, and it can tax a fishes kidneys very rapidly. If a fish (baby blue tang) is already supressed from stress, lowered salinity will only impair it and slow/prevent it from acclimating completely.

 

[tgreene]

Just something to consider, but there are many of us out here that would refuse to ever buy fish that have been in Copper, for the very reason that what goes in, must come out.

With the thousands of dollars invested in our reefs systems, there is no way in hell that I can afford to have a Copper filled fish introduced into my tank, only to have it Pee in the wrong place at the wrong time... Sure, this may sound bizarre, but then again this entire discussion pertains to protecting our own systems from infection by a single animal.

I personally maintain a salinity of 1.026, and if I'm introducing new fish, will often bring it up to 1.028 to induce osmotic shock on any parasites. I do not maintain a QT tank, but tend to run hyper-salinity rather than hypo, at all tmes.

Since I've switched to this method when I re-established my tank post-Katrina, exactly 1 year ago today, I've yet to ever have a problem with even adding fish that visibly did have problems when I bought them.

-Tim

 

[ReefRascals]

Tim - You make three distinct points, and to your credit you make them well. But in all reality none have any credence.

 

[tgreene]

Eh, they do and they don't...

While I fully realize that the OP/LFS is trying to protect his financial interests in making sure the livestock is healthy, what may be the best for him, certainly may not be in our best interests.

To think that Copper won't be excreted into our systems in some trace amount would be wrong. The question is how much can be tolerated in this form..? For me at least, anything that's left to question gets an automatic -VETO-.


Now on the the hyper-salinity issue:

In Borneman's "Corals" book; on page 349, he recommends a maintained salinity of 1.027. {{ The specific gravity of natural seawater with a salinity of 35ppt is 1.027; this is a target to keep in mind for a reef aquarium. }}

The Red-Sea, where many the more exoctic, beautiful, and harder to keep species come from, has a salinity of 1.028

It's my feeling that induced stress is generally from taking livestock from heavier salinity environments, and placing them in temporary environments with diminished capacities.

Case in point:

In late April I received a phone call from a friend/fellow reefer in regards to a 180g display tank that had been in miserable condition for years, where every coral (and most fish) added was dead in a matter of days. Because of my non-typical beliefs, and the highly unusual way in which I do things, I was asked if I was interested in taking over maintance and control of this publicly displayed tank. I agreed to take a look at it, and I brought along my Refractometer and MI-412 Phosphate Colorimeter.

Salinity ------ 1.017
Phosphate -- 1.74

The Perc Clown was actually yellow and white, rather than the traditional vibrant orange. This was the sole survivor in a 180g tank!

After meeting with the tank owner (a doctor), we agreed that I would tear everything down and completely start over, with a clone of my system. He agreed, cut me a check for all of the necessary equipment, and I went about ordering everything.

Starting at 8:00am on saturday May 13, we completely tore down the entire system, sanitized it with Muriatic Acid, polished the inside glass, and set everything back up to my specs... When the offices opened at 7:00am the following Monday morning, they essentially had a brand new system with an entire school of Perc Clowns and a Niger Trigger (with a large festering wound from being kept with a huge Grouper at the LFS) happily swimmimng about. It was quite easy to tell which Clown was original, because as mentioned above it was yellow, while all of the others were obviously orange. Within 30 days, it was nearly impossible to single out the lone sickly Clown, and after 5 months now, I wouldn't waste my time ever trying to figure it out. Furthermore, the Niger's infected wound had completely healed within a week and a half.

Within 3 weeks of re-building this tank, we filled it with corals, and it's already been fragged out several times by numerous club members. (The general rule is that anyone can take anything, as long as they've put something in).

After 3 roughly months, the Nassarious Snails and Conchs were laying eggs that subsecquently have hatched and developed.

So while in reality my points may not have any credence as far as running an LFS goes, it does weigh heavily upon who I would chose to do business with. An LFS that maintains his store tanks like we would maintain our home tanks, gets my business, while somebody who doesn't, won't!

In all honesty, it really sounds as if LizardKing should consider engaging a consultant, as there are a number of better and much more cost effective ways to do what he's attempting to do... First off, he should get rid of the MH's and use the low cost, low heat T5's that can easily be wired into his Mars systems.

 

[LizardKing]

The metal halides are not for the mars systems. I am just running the standard flourecents that come with the mars systems. However as some of the fixtures go out (its a used system, so I have a couple of weak fixtures) I am replaceing them with t5's. The halides will be for reef tanks seperate from the Mars.

I spoke with one of my suppliers yesterday, and he said If I wanted to really see heartbreak, USE COPPER. I.E. he is adviseing against the preventative use of copper on any of my systems.

This puts me up to all 3 of the people I currently trust most saying NO COPPER.

As to bringing a consultant in, honestly Ive got more advice then I know what to do with right now, all of its not the same. Not to mention the cost factor, something sadly I currently have to consider on every situation.

I just go my euro reef skimmers in today, and will be installing them in the near future. Hopefully this will help the systems out a bit more.

I also have another very very small fish order coming in this week. Damsels and a few other "hardy" fish to see what happens. Im going to go copper free one more time and see what happens. If everything melts away this time, I will put them in a QT system with either copper, or whatever is needed to rid the problem.

Im hopeing that since my numbers are much better this time, and seem to be stable, that I will do better. I will post the results as I know more.

I do appreciate everyones input, even if none of it agrees. I figure it lets me see every side of the subject, so thanks to all.

 

[LFS_worker]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8358696#post8358696 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by tgreene
Eh, they do and they don't...

While I fully realize that the OP/LFS is trying to protect his financial interests in making sure the livestock is healthy, what may be the best for him, certainly may not be in our best interests.

To think that Copper won't be excreted into our systems in some trace amount would be wrong. The question is how much can be tolerated in this form..? For me at least, anything that's left to question gets an automatic -VETO-.

Check your b-ionic bottle calcium on the back check the ingredients. Copper ...

LizardKing : The one topic I think we all agree on is we all respect your decision not to run copper and wish you the best It appears that you have done your research on many topics and it will prove lucrative.

Thanks Great thread
Brian