Need Help with a Store Set Up

[LizardKing]

"Instead, run a healthy system and buy from a distributor that has healthy stock."

Im all for this idea, but from my very limited experience it seems thats a bit of a gamble. I am ordering from what I am told is a reliable distributor. But you get as many different answers to that as you do to hypo, copper, or just about anything in the fish business. One person say the company is the best thing since sliced bread, others say the exact opposite. I however have not heard anything bad about the supplier I got the majority of my salt from.

That said out of about 60 fish, man I lost a LARGE chunk in the first 14 plus days. However the difficult thing is we rushed the systems a bit, and the nitrites were high for about a week. I didnt loose a ton the first week, but soon after the water settled in we started experienceing losses. Some we could have predicted (fish always looked stress since arrival, didnt eat well, ect). However many would go while looking great, feeding well, ect.

I am running at about 1.023 (but thats on a hydrometer, and Im told they can be inacurate). For the last 10 days my nitrates, nitrites, and amonia have been at unmeasurable numbers. My Ph is about 8.2-8.3 but again not the best test I plan to get a meter.

I had to turn off my uv steralizers to get the bio spira to settle in, and it worked. That said soon after the watter settled in I started getting die offs on the damsels, clowns, and oddly triggers. Now it seems each day atleast one new fish starts to show sings of stress, but often its opposite the stress another fish showed. Ive had a number of fish people into the store, many who have experience at the zoo, other pet shops, or other areas of the trade. All give different ideas on whats wrong, what will fix it, basically everything.

Half say copper, half say ride it out and soon the water will settle in. My biggest worry is now the systems allready have something, not sure what, but something in them. I just feel like Im off to a very bad start, and Im pretty spooked about restocking untill I figure it out.

I dont like the idea of constant treatments to the system, but I feel Id leave myself open to continous problems if I dont do something more then just "ride it out" as a few people have reccomended I do. The idea of a transition tank seems like the way to go to me, but Im still just not sure. Id love to quarantine everything, but I just cannot afford to do that at this time. Id have to set it up in the basement of the shop, pump heat down their or run alot of heaters in the tanks. Thats extra time cleaning more tanks, and its just my wife and I running a 4500 sq ft full line (atleast we dont sell live dogs, cats, or birds just supplies) shop. I have a GIANT rodent colony on top of it all I have to take care of. So times very important to me, and untill this thing gets going fully I cannot afford employees yet.

Im just looking for whats going to work with what I have. I can see their isnt going to be any cut and dry solution, but all the imput is helpfull. Im starting to get the idea alot of "industry" people say go copper, and alot of "customers" say dont. Ive had a few people bring up that some species are bigger problems then others, so thats definately something I need to work on learning. Im sure over time I can get a good system worked out, I just dont want to start any bad habbits right from go.

Thanks for everyones input, and I look forward to any advice given here, I will continue to check the thread daily.

 

[hahnmeister]

If you use a central filter, then a UV would be a good consideration to prevent cross contamination.

Sounds like either you have a chemistry problem, or a bum shipment from the distributor... could be either. But thats the idea behind starting with cheap fish like damsels to break in the system.

Just take some time... things should level out. Also, if you dont have a skimmer already on the system... add one. The ORP increase alone makes them worth it, and when breaking in everything, helps keep the ammonia>nitrate cycle from getting out of hand.

I would also ask... what is the 'in tank' circulation like for each tank? A central system is nice, but doesnt always provide enough oxygenation/motion to each individual tank, so supplimental powerheads/airstones are sometimes used. You can easily tell by the fish if they are 'gasping'. This is something that many LFSs goof up with and cant understand... saltwater doesnt hold as much oxygen as freshwater, so you need to move it that much more.

 

[LizardKing]

There are uv steralizers on each system. However to get the benifitial bacteria to build up they were turned off for a week to 10 days.

Water flow is pretty good, Ive been working on it to make sure each tank is getting enough. The systems have pretty heavy duty pumps on them.

The system itself is used, and was in use at my buddies store a few months prior to my getting it. He replaced it with a new system (at nearly 100 grand) because he wanted it to be black rather then blue. Otherwise it had great coraline buildup in his store and opperated just fine for him.

I have euro reef protein skimmers coming for each systems, rs250's but thats a few weeks off from now. I may add additional uv steralizers to the system, depending on how many watts the ones I have now are (keep forgetting to check).

I started off with mostly damsels, luckily, or the number of deaths would really have killed the wallet. However whats spooking me is that I added a few "healthy" fish after the water was where it needed to be, and one of them was a lionfish from a buddy. It made it a whole 7 days in the system before dying. The first 5 days it was fine, on the 6th day its eyes clouded over (Im told some sort of flat worm). We did two fresh dips, for about 2 minutes each one per day. On the seventh day its eyes were clear and it even tried to eat again. However I came in the next morning and it had passed. That fish never was stressed from shipping, so my system just took it out.

I am told by alot of my buddies the systems just new, and it wont happen next time. That said Im spooked out of my mind at the thought of ordering again anytime soon. Thus Im here.

 

[hahnmeister]

I would just give it time... who knows whats going on... but these things do have a way of solving themselves. Thats is true.

Eyes glazing over? Sounds like an ammonia spike to me. I take it that there is no live rock in the system, eh?

 

[LizardKing]

No, there is live rock in both systems. One has about 100 lbs (in 200 gallons) the other is only about 70lbs (in 300 gallons).

No live sand, I was encouraged to go with silica sand, but Im allready in the process of removing that to replace with agralive tommorow.

I will also be adding more live rock once I get more in, and cured.

No "cleaning crew" yet, but I doubt I have anything to support one either. I do have a ultra zoo, a number of anenomies, feather dusters, and a few other odds and ends non fish. All of them are doing fantastic in the same water.

No measurable amonia spikes as of yet in either systems. But again I used bio spira to start them so Im not sure if that had any effect on it. We only had a nitrite and nitrate spike.

 

[tuberider]

Via con Gresham.

 

[tuberider]

Via con Gresham.

 

[thejuggernaut]

I had a friend who had a petshop and he also ran his salt levels at about 1.020-1.021 for the obvious reason of helping out with parasites but he also said that it helped with oxygen levels, which someone has already said is hard to maintain on these large centralized systems. Either way I hope this store works out for you, my girlfriend loves animals, and im obsessed with fish. It would be great if one day we could run a store. This may seem a little off topic but how do u feel about selling some of the cheaper products that you feel are substandard. When I go into a petco or any other generic store like that I feel sorry for the animals, knowing that there are people out there who will just buy whatever the highschool kid getting paid 5.15 an hour tells them to buy, not knowing what it will do to the animal. But I guess you would never make money if you told everyone who comes in there that a prizm skimmer sucks and if they want to keep a reef tank they need a euro-reef with MHs or T5s.

 

[LizardKing]

Well personally Im not big on selling sub par items, or underselling a set up. As such we offer t's, halides, and soon the euro skimmers (waiting for stock to arrive). I have some of the lower quality stuff in stock, but honestly thats mostly in the freshwater department, and thats a demand issue.

As for the store set up, I still havent ordered in anymore fish. Im pretty gun shy at this point. Out of the first 60 ordered, all but 5 perished in the first 10 days. The remaining ones are thriving now.

I have since ordered in alot of soft corals, a few clams, and a few sps frags. The majority of theese are thriving in the system. I have also set up a few more tanks and cycled them with fresh live rock (on glass bottoms, cleaning out detrites as they build up). Theese are all just sitting with live rock soaking up energy at this time. I havent decided yet on the copper issue, allthough many people continue to tell me I should NOT go with copper.

I have also purchased a refractometer, and a digital ph meter. Neither are anything fancy, but do seem to be far more accurate then the drop tests I was useing. The first day I had my ph meter I got a 7.4 reading UGH>Only a few days earlier (at most) it was reading 8.3 on the drop test (good old crappy docwell fish...LOL). Over then next 4 days I upped the ph to 8.3 and its holding there now. My salinity level was roughly 1.020 it turns out first day on the refractometer. I have since risen it to 1.025 but thats due to the fact that the system is filled with the majority live rock, sand, and coral at this time. Once my reef systems cycle I will likely remove the majority of the coral and lower the salinity to 1.022-1.023 range.

Working alot of 16 hour days, and reading with every second I get.

 

[Kurt03]

If you have room i would do this.

Copper what you can when it comes in for 2-3 weeks.
(hypo helps with ich, but it doesnt help against velvet i know. Probably more stuff too.)

Inverts like snails and shrimp cant get ich so put them in there own tank, they also cant stand copper/hypo so they must be in there own system. If you copper new fish then mix them with inverts that havent been in a invert only tank for 1month+ they could have been harboring ich and end up givining it to the fish. Ich with no host (fish) will die in 3-4 weeks i think.

After that they go into main tanks at 1.026sg everything else normal.(this is what people should be keeping reefs at, fish only tank can be around 1.025)
I have never run a FS so this is just what i would try first if i could. This is the QT period for most hobbiest and i think it shoud be the same at LFS.
Also i would let people buy from the QT tanks but let them know what they are buying. If there still willing to buy right then sell them it, if they want to put it on hold till its out of copper do that! If you have enough of a demand you could even sell the ones out of QT for more then the ones in QT.

Thats all i can think of right now, good luck!!

 

[hahnmeister]

Id still keep everything except QT on the same system. That way, you can spot treat any fish that look sick, but keep the rest in a healthy system. Of my LFS's, the better few do it this way. When I buy fish from them, they live and acclimate fast. Ones that come from hypo and copper constant systems are weaker, and transfer much rougher... so I dont even bother buying from them. Keep in mind that what might work for some stores doesnt always mean its the best for their customers, and when they start to notice their fish always dying from certain places, or that they are harder to acclimate due to lowered salinity and other 'exposure' problems... they quit buying from those stores. There are a couple 'hypo' and copper stores near me that come to mind... I dont even bother buying from them... I know the stuff is more likely to die. Well, certain things that is... like tangs and their like. Id rather buy fish from a healthy system, not something thats all medicated and hypo.

 

[GreshamH]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8165420#post8165420 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by LizardKing
Thats kinda funny, the "dont have retail experience part" that is.

The two people that are telling me the most NOT to run copper, one owns a pet shop going on 18 years, another going on 15 years, and the last is the old fish guy at what used to be the best run marine shop in town.

One says only treat when needed, the other says he never treats, and the last says a mix of both almost.

This really leads me back to thinking that running copper on atleast what is now the feeder section, may be my best option. Then new fish can go into the copper section, and slowly make their way to the non copper section. Any arguments why this would be a bad option?

Obviously no inverts or live in the copper section. And of course I would do proper doses, as I dont wish to build a resistant strain of anything.

Gotta love the fish world, a million ways to do the same thing.

Why not ask your supplier what they do? I've only run across two stateside suppliers that don't, and them combined equals about a single daily SDC shipment :lol:

FWIW, prior to spending nearly a decade managing a MO wholesaler, I thought copper was evil. After seeing what a holding system can get like w/o copper in a wholesale setting, I'm convinced of it's need. LIke you said though, there's many ways to skin this cat.

 

[LizardKing]

Ive asked my supplier what they would do, but I guess I havent asked how they are doing it on their end. I explain my set up, situation, idea, and ask what they would do. Seems this may be the wrong approach.

It seems its spit all the way allong the lines. Some of the suppliers think Im asking for trouble running copper constant, even on a break in tank. Others have said that a "qt system" if you want to call it that is a great idea.

Some shop owners Ive spoken with say its a dumb idea, just run clean systems and get mine matured and I will be fine. Others say its a must.

The same argument occurs on the reptile side of things I suppose. Our shop doesnt deal much with imports on reptiles. That said when we do, we generally only treat the known problems, never preventative treatments or "shot gun approach" so to speak. Other however treat all imports with flagyl, panacur, ect upon arrival no matter what. I guess its all a matter of methodology.

Currently Im working on running larger amounts of fresh in my fresh systems to see how well I can keep large amounts of fish alive. So far thoose systems are really starting to hit their mark (with no preventative treatments, just water changes, gravel vacs, and pad cleanings). Im reading as much as I can, and just going slow on the salt side.

The systems are starting to come alive. I have a ton of pods, dusters, worms, and the like showing up. The brown bloom has stopped, and Im in a slight greening, but nothing major (some of the whiter live rocks have a slight phyto plankton painting look to them). I think Im starting to see the lightest of purple coraline showing up in new spots. Most of the rocks in the main system are high quality heavy waxy looking coated rocks. However Im starting to see a powdery looking purple show up on some white areas that wasnt their prior.

The water values seem to be staying constant for the last few weeks, but again no large fish loads just a good amount of zoo polyps, some ricordea, a few clams, and some sps that I need to get into a reef system with halides asap. Not sure if its allowed, but I can shoot a pic and post it at some point, I just dont want to come off as advertiseing.

 

[hahnmeister]

You wanna know what I would do? Call ORA. They deal with this stuff all the time. Granted, they might stear you to running a more natural system, but thats because they believe in farm grown stocking, not wild stuff that stresses out.

 

[Kurt03]

i think pics would be fine.

 

[LFS_worker]

I am a manager at a LFS store and have been working there for over 3 years.

Run copper all the time. You have alot of $ invested in your livestock. Customers who know what they are doing will not buy fish from you if they are sick so basically you just wait for them to die.
Customers will come into your store stating that they caught ich from you then you can test your copper levels right in front of them and show them that it just is not possible to have ich in that system. Just teach good acclamation procedures and remind everyone not to add your water to their system. (this goes for you too )

For the next 2 months do water changes on your newly set-up system of about 20%-30%. Until that is done do not get fish in such as: Anthias, Angels, delicate tangs, sweetlips, butterflies etc. These fish will not fare well with a new system.
I didnot see it on your post but I would HIGHLY recommend that you invest in some large skimmers. even though the systems maybe only 100g total the bennfits are numerous (plus it helps in sales of skimmers)

Alot of people have alot of different Ideas on how to run systems and that is ok ... most of your fish are not going to be sold on the day that they come in...
oh yeah absolutely do not do freshwater dips when the fish first come in , you'll kill alot of them for sure, You will still get your DOA credit but you loose on shipping.

There are alot of good venders out there if you need some more venders PM me.

Good luck and prosper
Brian

 

[fantastic4]

Used to work at a LFS as well, the owner made me do everything with water plumbing... now it has been a while, but this is what I have seen from my eyes...

Fish Only Tanks
Copper is effective for keeping inventory alive, but seems to mask problems. It is not effective at elliminating ick or other ailments through and through, thus fish brought to clients home (aka stressed out fish, will be prone to develop issues).

Most effective setup on Fish Only... Good UV system with healthy supplier to begin with or pick them yourself. Your water must also be well filtered, for the LFS volume, wet/dry is the only thing feasible. Think creative wet/dry systems however you can achieve it. Oh yeah... one other thing, ensure you do everytjhing you can to ensure somehwhat constant water temperature, as you change water out this can be an issue, think it through. We noticed sick fish to begin with just gave us problems. Healthy fish all-n-all did just fine, even after many many weeks just sitting in tanks. Note: The wet/dry system was aged and huge. We used a giant cylyndar roughly 10 foot high by 4 foot wide and filled it with a combination of cut plastic pvc and off end plastic shavings from who knows where, water was pumped to the top.

For our coral tanks...
Simple. No copper. No mixing of water from fish only tanks. Frequent water changes on a weekly basis at 10-30%. Must have good supplier or pick them yourself. Oh yeah, don't skimp on lighting... somehwhat high hanging halide pendants work really well as they do not interfere with the hustle and bustle of hands going in and out of the tanks. The lights seems to help the corals look good despite constant interuptions with moves. Frequent water changes was the key. Do not allow tanks to overheat in Summertime, we were air conditioned and did not need chillers. I suppose, PC lights would be ok as well, but 100% confident in saying that halide pendants will ensure your corals look good and come back out quickly for clients to see after moves. We did not link the tanks, we had seperate individual tanks with filters, this worked well for us.

We also did not do dips on the day fish recieved, we did however, try to save fish with dips and copper in quarintine tanks only after fish looked like they would not last anouther week.

We also did not raise or lower salt levels. raising or lowering salt was not feasible for the volume of water on the connected fish only tanks. We also did not do this on the coral tanks, however, I suspect that the frequent water changes, combined with good lighting was the trick to these. Again the coral tanks were all seperated.

 

[LizardKing]

And there is the dilema I am currently in. Two perfect post saying the exact opposite thing.

As to picking my fish in person, thats not going to happen in Nebraska. So I have to hope my suppliers treat me right.

We are running a wet/dry sump (its a good sized commercial bio wheel system). We also have uv steralizers on the system, not sure of the wattage but I am going to contact the manufacturer to find out. Likely will add another one to each system to overkill. As for skimmer, Im waiting on Euro Reef to contact me with a ship date, hopefully it will be soon.

How far should I place the halides from my reef tanks. Im setting up two 120's and two 125's as we speak. Each will be plumped seperate, with their own uv steralizers, skimmers, ect. The place I plan to install the lights is about 12" above the tank. I planned to mount the halides to the bottom of that, so I figure approx 8" from the tank for the bulb height. Is this far enough to not worry about water splash on the bulb? It should give me enough work height, as I dont have much more then that now on the other systems. Plus the light ledge as Im going to call it, will not be as wide as the tanks, so the first 6" or so I should have infinate work room on. Granted this will make the front of the tanks a little less well lit, but I dont figure that would be to big an issue would it?

 

[CoralFiend]

I am just a hobbyist and have no store experience, so forgive my ignorance in that arena.

Maybe I misunderstood what you are contemplating. To me, if you run copper in your system all the time, wouldn't you get like no benefit from any sort of attempt at biological filtration? You were speaking of live rock and bio wheels. Would copper not render them useless? To me, it seems you would have a large number of fish swimming around in their own waste (since there would be no biological filtration going on) and I would expect nothing other than to see them die off as time goes on. Would you not have to do very large water changes on a regular basis to just reduce the amount of waste in the water? How would your system ever "settle in" when it is constantly being bombarded with new doses of copper and killing off any beneficial bacteria that might manage to get a foothold? Like I said, I don't know anything about what stores do, so excuse me thinking out loud.

If it were me, I think I would rather have a well functioning natural filtration system with adequate skimming and UV - if UV was even necessary. Would it not be better to get a stressed fish into a well balanced natural environment and allow them to regain their health? Remove sickly looking fish ASAP and get them to a QT area where you can treat for their particular ailment.

We have a new LFS that opened up a few months ago. They are running this very large sump that is filled with live rock, macro algae & even some giant clams. They have a seven foot tall EuroReef Recirc skimmer that is truly a beast to behold. They have some large UV units, but I can't tell you what kind they are. They run no copper. They ran the system for a good while before opening the store and it was all pretty well established when they opened their doors. Anyway, their livestock has done very well so far. Just my 1 cent worth...

 

[LizardKing]

Thats part of the problem as I see it with the copper.

As I see it there is very little chance I will run the entire fish area with copper. At most I plan to run one 4ft section of the fish area with copper in it. Thoose tanks would be bare bottom, and would have esentially base rock (the worst of the worst live I guess) so the fish would have places to hide. Theese tanks would be invert, coral free.

The systems as they are set up are as follows:

One 4ft section with a chiller, a uv steralizer, a commercial bio wheel (this has filter media above it, then the wheel). Currently this system is not set up with a skimmer, nore have I decided on what one to use on it. I only have approx 20" of sump clearence on the systems. I would use a hose to clean the bottom a couple of times a week to help the filter do its job. This is the system I am debating doing copper on, and putting all new fish in upon arrival.This system runs 100 gallons.

<img src="http://reefcentral.com/gallery/data/500/135036fishroom2.jpg ">

The ones you see to the left are the (2) 4' display. The one you see touching them going to the back of the room, is the (1) 4ft display. The pics were taken before the system was up and running fully.

<img src="http://reefcentral.com/gallery/data/500/135036fishroom3.jpg">

This is what the (2) system looks like currently. Sorry about the poor pics, still learning to photograph aquariums. Any tips for useing a nikon d70 with water would rock.

<img src="http://reefcentral.com/gallery/data/500/135036fishroom4.jpg">

Here is the plumbing on the systems to give you an idea of the clearence issues, howeve plenty of behind the system space, as I can work the systems from the front.

The next is a (2)4ft section, uv steralizer, bio wheel, 1500 watt heater, one sump (also only 20" of clearence). This system I would like to run as a non treated fish display. I have a Euro Reef RS250 I believe ordered for it. This system runs 200 gallons. I plan to have live rock, crushed coral, inverts, fish, and coral in this system.

The last is a (3)4ft section, uv steralizer, 2 bio wheels, 1500 watt heater, two sumps (again low clearence). I also have a rs250 ordered for this system. It runs 300 gallons, and I plan to stock it as the above.

<img src="http://reefcentral.com/gallery/data/500/135036DSC_0762.JPG">

This is the 3 bank system

<img src="http://reefcentral.com/gallery/data/500/135036fishroom120.jpg">

This shows where I plan to put the reef systems, well sorta. That tank sitting there on a stand is one of the reef ready 120's I plan to use. Kinda looks tiny sitting there.

I intend to upgrade the skimmers later on, but the ones Ive got coming should help. I will have to plumb them away from the sump, so I have extra pumps ready and will figure it out when they arrive.

Obviously the reef systems will be copper free, and I still havent fully decided on their set ups, still working on the fish displays.

I think Im going to order in a small fish order this week. I have the other systems cycled at this point, but have not treated with copper. I did however get a salifert copper test kit on hand (havent stocked them for resale yet, still looking for a good supplier). I will dose if needed after I see what I get. Im back and fourth on what system to put them in. Id like to see how they would do in the more established system, but Im scared of introduceing ich to the system again so who knows. But then again, the (3) 4ft section has been up and running for almost 6 weeks Id guess (forgot when I set them up at this point). However its also pretty full of coral, live rock/sand, ect. The (2) system has also been up and running for about 5-6 weeks, however it was used to cure a new shipment of a few hundred pounds of live rock the last few weeks. That said its numbers are done spikeing, and it currently has a clean glass bottom. But I have crushed coral on hand to use as substrate, just want to give the rock as much time as possible to flake off the detrites.

Anyways, as you can tell Ive got about a million projects going at once, and Im just a bit gun shy on doing anything so I just keep doing circles. Guess its time to go back to work, and spin some more....LOL.

<img src="http://reefcentral.com/gallery/data/500/135036polyps.jpg">

<img src="http://reefcentral.com/gallery/data/500/135036polyps2.jpg">

Sorry abou the crappy pics. As you can see the polyps, dusters, and the like are all doing well in the system so far. I just couldnt keep the fish around.