Need help with fish in QT

[graveyardworm]

I bought 4 Anthias last weekend 12-5. I placed them in a 20g QT with water from my main display a small pile of well established LR aside from one piece which had been curing in my system for about a month also I added a HOB filter with a well seeded filter. The fish were fine until yesterday morning 12-13 when I noticed the male looked beat up and was stressing on the bottom and breathing rapidly. I added some ammonia detox stuff, and waited a bit. The three females were fine at this time. After a little while he still was stressed so I changed 50% with water from my display and went to work. At lunch he was a bit more active but still breathing rapidly and taking breaks on the bottom so I changed another 50%. Last night I came home and he was dead. The three females still looked fine. I didnt feed them last night just in case it was an ammonia spike. This morning 2 females were dead and the third appeared stressed. I added more ammonia detox stuff, waited a bit and changed 80% of the water.

Not sure what to do next. Get the LR out? Need some advice ASAP. I wont be able to do anything till this evening when I get off work.

FWIW there are a few coral polyps on the LR which were open last night. Indicating to me atleast that if ammonia is present its in a very very low concentration.

 

[graveyardworm]

Here's a pic of the QT

 

[Kieth71]

If the other fish are fine and show no signs of problems i tend to think the male had other problems beyond your control.I would add an ammonia badge to your qt but besides that i think your qt looks fine.The other thing i have in my qt is a small powerhead which you may want to add as well to help with adding a bit more flow for better oxygen int he tank.I dont think their was much you could do for the fish you lost though and as long as the other fish continue to do fine i dont think i would change to much. HTH Kieth

 

[graveyardworm]

I have added a small powerhead already. Its not just the male 2 of the females are now also dead.

 

[Kieth71]

When they died did they all show the same behavior? IE: on the bottom breathing hard?Do they show any signs of twitching behavior with their head shaking side to side?Do you have any parasites in your display tank such as periodic ich showing up on fish which i assume is where the live rock came from?Any lesions on any of the fish such as flaking skin or signs of velvet?

 

[SumBub]

It could've been the fishes trying to establish their pecking order. The male wasn't on the top. That should explain why he's all beat up. As for the females dying, could it be because of the ammonia detox stuff you used? I try not to use chemicals to get rid of ammonia. Just water changes should be able to lower it significantly.

 

[LargeAngels]

My initial guess is either velvet or flukes. A Seachem ammonia badge is a great thing to have on QT's.

 

[graveyardworm]

In this case my ammonia badge are coral polyps. They are all open and look healthy.

The fish were in QT so anything in the display shouldnt be a huge factor aside from I used display water to fill the tank initially, and for water changes. The fish in the display are all healthy and have been so for quite awhile.

The fourth female is still alive but doesnt look good. She's not swimming, has lesions, color is off, fins are a bit tattered, and is breathing heavy and a little rapidly.

All 4 fish were absolutely great and healthy for a week. now in less than 36 hours 3 are dead and the 4th will likely die. I changed 50% water on Saturday, Sunday the fish were fine and ate in the evening. Monday by lunch the male was dead. I changed 50% water Monday morning, and 50% again midday. Using aged display water. Tuesday morning both females dead, changed 80% water, and now Tuesday evening probably all 4 dead. With no visible signs of disease. Coral polyps in QT looked healthy the entire time. I wish I could measure ammonia, but cant. I dont believe this is the the cause, but could be wrong. Water changes shouldve fixed it. Is there any chance this could be caused by cyanide collection?

 

[graveyardworm]

In the chance that this is Marine Velvet I'm going to give copper a treatment a shot tonight, but I think the remaining female is too far gone already.

 

[graveyardworm]

I've now removed all biological filtration, and dosed with copper by the dosage instructions. Here's a picture of the remaining fish.

 

[wooden_reefer]

Here's a pic of the QT

I see that you have a HOT power box.

You should have cycled a different medium, more compact , other than the LR, as the biological filtration for nitrification in QT for fish. Sponges, polyester floss, crushed coral/oyster shell wrapped by a few layers of well-stretched nylon panty hose is what I like to use. Put it inside your power filter. Use clay pots /PVC fittings and the likes for hiding places, not medium of filtration.

LR that already has growth of higher lives is not suitable as a medium of biological filtration in QT, when you want to treat fish actively, not just isolate. Both hypo and copper will kill them and cause a dieoff in QT.

In your case, whether the LR in QT is enough to process the ammonia depends on what type of cycling the LR had gone thru before. If you used the slow method, there may not be enough. That there are higher lives on the LR suggests that the cycle had not been as robust as possible for use in QT, although I can't be certian. If you had used the robust method to cycle the LR, it will be enough for nitrification per se. Although as I have said, the use of large LR pieces (except rubbles) for QT is in general not a good idea, as large LR pieces are too large to fit into a power filter. And too difficult to set aside when you want to (in the rare occasions when you have to use a drug that harms nitrification bacteria).

Ammonia may or may not be your problem. Sometimes bacterial infection can strike fast, or the method of capture/transport was not good enough.

For future, improve your QT setup.

 

[graveyardworm]

Aside from one of the pieces which is reasonably cycled rock it is all well established rock and came from my main system. I used to use the sterile QT approach and had good result with it, but thought I would go more natural. I've done it this way and have read of its use. Unfortunatly medication cant be performed with all that life in there so its removed while I medicate, or treat.

Unless someone tells me otherwise based on my description and picture that the problem is ammonia I'm going to believe this is likely some sort of infection like velvet, or something else and will continue to QT in this fashion. I'm fairly certain it isnt ammonia.

 

[graveyardworm]

Holy crap man over 500 posts in 2 months, and almost entirely involving fish disease and QT!

 

[Aqua_boy]

These is not a disease it is because of fluctuating heat levels.

 

[graveyardworm]

? The temp in the QT was steady at 80. 250 watt heater in 20g tank. I'm sure there was a bit of fluctuation between the on/off maybe a couple degrees. Certainly not as much swing as there is in my display.

I copper treated the tank last night and a few hours later the 4th fish was dead. She was pretty much a gonner at that point anyway.


Can anyone tell me do the symptoms I describe and the pic look like ammonia or velvet? Trying to figure out if its something I did wrong or was going to happen regardless.

 

[RBU1]

I can tell you that dosing any amonnia binding agent can turn copper really toxic. You should never combine the 2.

The trick to a good QT is to treat it just like a main tank. Let it run and establish itself prior to adding fish.

If I were you.....I would clean the crap out of that tank put all the live rock that was in there in a trash can and restart the tank letting it run for a couple months to get the bio filtration established. Wooden reefer can help you speed up the bacteria piece. Then use PVC pipe in the tank instead of rock.

What type of copper did you use? What was your dosage?

 

[graveyardworm]

The copper wasnt used until after an 80% water change, and it was the last fish on its last breath. I removed all the LR and bio filtration prior to adding the copper. Aside from possibly having been contaminated with Marine Velvet the rock is absolutely fine. Its in its own QT for the time being and will probably be bleached and then reused.

The trick to a good QT is to treat it just like a main tank. Let it run and establish itself prior to adding fish.

and

Then use PVC pipe in the tank instead of rock.

are a bit contradictory. What exactly am I establishing, bacteria in a HOB filter?

Wooden reefer can help you speed up the bacteria piece.

I'm a bit old fashion and prefer to let nature take its course.

What type of copper did you use? What was your dosage?

Mardel coppersafe, dosage:5ml per 4g, I dosed 20ml to 20g

I've been doing alot of reading and am 99% sure that what affected the fish was Marine Velvet. I dont have ny previous experience with MV and I can tell you it kills fast, and very closely mimicks ammonia poisoning. I believe the fish became infected just prior to or at the LFS and it took 1 week for the MV to reach a deadly population. By the time the fish showed sign of sickness it was probably already too late.

 

[RBU1]

Yes biological filtration examples include W/D filter Hang on filter with a bio wheel.....

Most will tell you not to use rock in a QT. Some do it but PVC pipe in my opinion is much better.

Old fashioned has nothing to do with it.....Thare are tricks to getting bacteria to grow and wooden reefer is better at it then I am......Bacteria is what you want to break down ammonia and nitrite both deadly to fish.

I doubt what your fish had was velvet. Velvet usually kills almost overnight. I bet you had some other issues. Ammonia might be one of them....Did you ever test ammonia?


Your product of choice for the copper treatment is not a very popular one. I would use Seachems Cupramine going forward if possible.

 

[graveyardworm]

They did die overnight.

I keep a filter for the HOB in my sump so its already seeded with bacteria. The QT was set up for the fish at the time of their purchase with established LR from my display system, and the water was aged water from my display. I've set up many QT tanks over the years and have lost some fish in QT, but this is the first that I'm almost certain was MV. There's no way its was ammonia. There were some coral polyps on the LR that remained open and happy the entire time. I also did some pretty heavy water changes and the situation never improved. Plus the ammonia detox shouldve almost immediately remedied the situation.

Your product of choice for the copper treatment is not a very popular one. I would use Seachems Cupramine going forward if possible.

Not popular? It has one ingredient, Chelated Copper Sulfate. Whats in Seachem Cupramine?

 

[RBU1]

They did die overnight.

I keep a filter for the HOB in my sump so its already seeded with bacteria. The QT was set up for the fish at the time of their purchase with established LR from my display system, and the water was aged water from my display. I've set up many QT tanks over the years and have lost some fish in QT, but this is the first that I'm almost certain was MV. There's no way its was ammonia. There were some coral polyps on the LR that remained open and happy the entire time. I also did some pretty heavy water changes and the situation never improved. Plus the ammonia detox shouldve almost immediately remedied the situation.



Not popular? It has one ingredient, Chelated Copper Sulfate. Whats in Seachem Cupramine?

It seems to me like you don't want any suggestions. You must know everything. So OK it was MV good luck with future purchases.