Need Ich Advice....how to proceed

[Alex T.]

OK. This is extremely frustrating. Since October of 2010 I have lost the following fish....

my pride and joy Achilles Tang (with me for 2 years)
Coral Beauty
Maroon Clownfish
Kole Tang

I have a 150 gallon SPS dominant reef that was doing great. The last fish was added over a year ago. All fish were quarantined prior to introduction for a minimum 30 days. In early October I bought a few SPS frags from a LFS and then ich broke out. My hunch is that for some reason the ich "tomites" were unhatched and on the frags upon introduction. The LFS owner is notorious for moving fish in and out of his reef displays so I think this is plausible.

The remaining fish are as follows:

Yellow Tang
Orange Tail Blue Devil
Sixline Wrasse
4 Chromis
2 Lyretail Anthias

Nobody is currently showing signs of the parasite. However, I wish to add one more tang and possibly rehome the chromis and add anthias in their place with another clownfish. Being that I don't want to lose more fish, I need to try and move all current fish to a quarantine system to let the tank run fallow. Plus, I don't care to lose more fish! This has been a very trying endeavor because my corals are fully encrusted on the rockwork and nothing can be moved to catch any of the fish.

There is one fish left to catch...the orange tailed damsel. I know his resting place and will give it a try again tonight. Being that there is currently no extreme sense of urgency as far as I can tell.....could I quarantine them with hyposalinity for the 6 week period or should I go straight to copper. The other fish are in my holding bay which is my large sump where they are all eating well and safe for now. The sponge for the qt aquaclear filter has been in my sump for two weeks building up bacteria and ready to go.

Please help.

 

[Ann Marie]

Hmm. I'd do hypo myself. How large is your QT system? I've done hypo on a tank that had live rock in it and had no problem. That's a lot of fish you've got to add to a QT all at once. You may want to add a couple every so often for a week so that you can build up the bioload on the QT instead of just putting everyone in.

 

[Alex T.]

I have a 30 breeder in the garage that I was thinking of using. Except for the Yellow tang, most of the fish are relatively small. I also have about 30 pounds of live rock in my sump. If going the hyposalinity route, I was going to transfer the rock over and then the fish. I also have a hang on the back skimmer I was thinking of using. I don't know how effective it would be with salinity that low though.

Any thoughts?

 

[jcw]

even if the skimmer won't work well in hyposalinity, the oxygenation it provides is invaluable, IMO.

 

[waeleldasher]

There are a couple of ideas here...to catch the last fish, I've read rave reviews of Aqua Medic's fish trap. Many have said it's effective. That might be worth a try. Secondly, I've just completed hypo not long ago and did lose a few fish. It was also exhausting changing the water daily (50%). I just read a thread here in this sub-forum about Crypt-Pro, read that thread as it does offer some new solutions that may make this entire experience less stressful on the fish and yourself.

cheers

W.

 

[MrTuskfish]

There are a couple of ideas here...to catch the last fish, I've read rave reviews of Aqua Medic's fish trap. Many have said it's effective. That might be worth a try. Secondly, I've just completed hypo not long ago and did lose a few fish. It was also exhausting changing the water daily (50%). I just read a thread here in this sub-forum about Crypt-Pro, read that thread as it does offer some new solutions that may make this entire experience less stressful on the fish and yourself.

cheers

W.

Although I've always used copper; Crypt-Pro, a brand of Quinine Sulfate is getting rave reviews and seems to be the treatment of choice of some real experts. (Fenner, Goemans, and others). Forum member; Regal Angel has done a real sales job , including good references, with this stuff---I'm a hard sell. I wouldn't hesitate to use it; research it well and let us know how it works.

To the OP: You've given an example of why so many hobbiests QT everything. I've seen some LFS that have their coral tanks on the same filtration system as the fish. There are online dealers that have kept coral in fish-free water long enough to put right into the DT; but coral can easily carry parasites into your tank. So can other inverts and LR. BTW; coral dips are for the coral and will not eliminate parasites.

 

[Alex T.]

I was always under the assumption that hyposalinity was more safe and easy to perform than using copper the entire length of the qt. It seems many people have lost a lot of fish during hypo treatment. I'm a little confused as to which route to take. None of the remaining fish are visibly stressed so I'd rather take the least invasive route.

I was not able to catch the last fish last night. I'll try again when I get home from work. All other fish are fine in the sump for now. There's easily 50 gallons of volume for them with some live rock.

 

[MrTuskfish]

I was always under the assumption that hyposalinity was more safe and easy to perform than using copper the entire length of the qt. It seems many people have lost a lot of fish during hypo treatment. I'm a little confused as to which route to take. None of the remaining fish are visibly stressed so I'd rather take the least invasive route.

I was not able to catch the last fish last night. I'll try again when I get home from work. All other fish are fine in the sump for now. There's easily 50 gallons of volume for them with some live rock.

This post is 100% opinion, there are others and I respect them too.There are as many opinions on this subject as there are hobbyists. There have been many published experts who are (or have been ) on both sides of this topic. Hypo is probably easier on fish; but has no room for error and is a lot of work. Copper may do some liver damage, among other reported problems; but its easy and fool proof. Hypo may be less stressful to the fish; but copper is less stressful on me. Given the time hypo take to perform and monitor vs the time I have---that counts. I also happen to think it is more effective. I use Cupramine copper and a SeaChem copper test kit. I lost a lot of fish in Katrina, have lots of fish now (since moving) and every one of them has been treated with a full dose copper in QT (making adjustments for the copper-sensitivity of a few fish). I have never lost a fish that I could conclusively blame on copper (really, never even suspected it) and have never had seen any parasites in my DTs. I have treated many fish for a friends, over the last 20 yrs, with copper and it has a 100% success rate. Any fan of hypo can give just as many pluses for that method too.

However: if I had to treat a fish with ich today, I would use Quinine Sulfate. If you search this site, Google, and WetWeb Media., you will find a lot of info on it. Like I said above; Bob Fenner and Bob Goemans, among the most quoted experts in the hobby, now consider QS the treatment of choice. I have never regretted their advice.

 

[Alex T.]

Well, after extensive reading and research, I'm not quite convinced that what I'm dealing with is ich.

If you check my original post and the fish that have been lost, you'll note that all fish are listed as susceptible to Brooklynella (sp?). The Maroon Clown which had been with me for over 5 years was the first to succumb. He never showed any signs of the usual white spots on him and then within 72 hours became lethargic and refused food. I came home from work on the third day and he was dead. Then the Achilles ensued. I don't know if ich definitely kills that fast however my Achilles was absolutely covered in white spots, almost as if he had been dipped in bread crumbs. He swam directly into the current of a Vortech MP40 for a day and then died that night. Then came the Coral Beauty. Absolutely covered like the Achilles and died within 48 hours. Kole tang...the last casualty, suffered the same fate a few weeks later. As stated, all fish went from scratching on the rocks to dead within a couple days. I understand that this is an assumption but my two Anthias, which I always took to be very sensitive have never shown any signs of being infected. In fact, they're the first ones to beg for food at the surface.

I'm confused as to how to proceed. I don't have any pictures, but from what I've seen with the lethargic behavior and refusing food immediately after infection I'm beginning to believe this is not ich. The white spots are simply too numerous to lead me in that direction. Each fish had easily more than 100 raised cysts on their bodies, and from what I've seen with ich it is usually far less. I'm wondering if I should treat each fish with Formalin and then introduce to a copper in a hospital tank or introduce directly to copper in a hospital tank. One more fish to catch, and then I'll have to make the decision. Need opinions and best guesses.

 

[MrTuskfish]

See if you can find some good pics of velvet (Oodium). this is a very deadly, fast acting and very contagious parasite. It usually responds well to copper. I'm not good at diagnosing parasites without seeing the fish, but there are some give-aways to velvet. IME, velvet is best diagnosed with a head on view.
On the other hand, ich can easily appear in the numbers you're seeing. At that rate of infection, they will also show the behavior you describe. IMO, its the parasites you don't see, in the gills, that are really doing the damage.
Fish with ich tend to live much longer, untreated, than fish with velvet or brooklynella. Given the history of your tank and the time involved; IMO, that points to ich. If you treat with copper; ich or velvet should be cured. If you're convinced that it is one of these two; I wouldn't wait until you catch the last fish. Start treatment ASAP and add time after you catch him.

 

[steelhead77]

FYI....This is what an ich infested fish looks like:



Considerably more than 100 spots. This guy survived without any treatment and still humming along today.

Unlike Brook and Velvet, Ich is not usually a fast killer.

Good Luck.

 

[Alex T.]

The problem Steelhead is that mine have been dying, even with perfect water chemistry, husbandry, garlic soaked food and heavy feedings. QT's my only option. I guess maybe it is ich that I have so I will most likely be transferring everything over tomorrow evening after work. Oh joy.

 

[steelhead77]

Good luck, man. I wish you and your fish well.

 

[Alex T.]

I caught the last fish this morning. I've always had good luck catching fish if I flip on the actinics prior to their normal "on" time while fish are still groggy and disoriented.

All fish were transferred to qt using Mardel Coppersafe at the prescribed dosage. I'm not going to feed them until tomorrow evening. The qt is not lit, but since it's in the same small room as my SPS display it will receive indirect light throughout the day. Being that this is in my home office they will still receive the quiet, undisturbed privacy they need when being treated. My wife (what a saint) has agreed to send me text messages throughout the day to let me know how everyone's doing. The countdown commences. I've chosen to keep them in the qt with the display tank fallow for 7 weeks, which would make their release date back into the display June 9th. I've never quarantined this many fish at once and never plan on doing it again. I can't believe that something as negligent as not quarantining an SPS frag could have done this.

I know in this forum it's preaching to the choir. By the time you're reading in this forum you've already got a problem, but this really is a note to everyone to qt everything...and I mean EVERYTHING. I qt'd all these fish for 4 weeks prior to introduction with dips, observation and copper when necessary. One stupid frag introduction from a system with a sick fish and it can all spell disaster. I just wish my Achilles could have been saved through this ordeal.

 

[geaux xman]

I've seen Copps and Chris(ccampbell57) saying that they will QT anything wet(corals/frag) included. With as much valuable livestock they have on the line, I dont blame them.

However, what is an efficient method of QT-ing a frag? Would that 5 or 7 day transfer method work best?

I am glad I'm FOWLR. That is a lot of trouble with the frequency corals/frags are added.

 

[steelhead77]

Even given your situation, I think it's rare for ich to come in on a frag. Given the conditions required for most corals, unless you have a frag tank with proper lighting and water chemistry, it's really not feasible to "qt" frags or corals. If you're worried about it, how 'bout giving them a dip in some Lugol's and then just giving them a good swirl in some fresh tank water?

I realize that in an ideal world, qt'ing everything is best, but for most folks, it's just not realistic.

 

[Surf&turf]

FYI....This is what an ich infested fish looks like:



Considerably more than 100 spots. This guy survived without any treatment and still humming along today.

Unlike Brook and Velvet, Ich is not usually a fast killer.

Good Luck.

What did you do to get him thru the ich?

 

[steelhead77]

What did you do to get him thru the ich?

Nothing. No QT, no meds, just added a UV sterilizer after about a week of him looking like this. It took about two weeks for him to finally fight this off and get better. In that time, he pretty much parked himself in front of a Koralia. He continued to eat like a pig and swim normal. There were about 9 or 10 other fish in the tank with him and none came down with it either. This was almost 3 years and 2 tank upgrades ago. No other outbreaks have occurred despite the stress induced from the upgrades.

This is why I advocate a "wait and see" approach rather than the "yank and medicate" approach so many around here advocate.

I don't think my experience is all that unique.

 

[b0bab0ey]

In early October I bought a few SPS frags from a LFS and then ich broke out. My hunch is that for some reason the ich "tomites" were unhatched and on the frags upon introduction. The LFS owner is notorious for moving fish in and out of his reef displays so I think this is plausible.

I'm curious, did you dip these frags in something like CoralRX before putting them in your DT? I know "officially" CoralRX doesn't claim to kill parasites/diseases hitchhiking on your corals... but I've heard it does...

 

[Alex T.]

All my frags are dipped in CoralRX, regardless of where they come from.