New Angelfish- strange morph...

[copps]

Shoot... I'm at work and will not be able to see the photos until tonight... either way Jeremy nice find! Whatever it is, you'll be documenting SOMETHING, which is what I always find interesting... I've had many fish keep their pattern and many fish revert back... either way you'll be documenting something... Pictures of these things can only tell us so much... it is when someone documents the fish over the course of months/years as I've tried to do, we learn something new... I'll check it out tonight!

If you want to be sure that it is a hybrid keep sending us photos, the adults should show intermediate colors too. Also, when he dies (hopefully years from now ) freeze it and send it to me, I will gladly run a DNA test to see if its a hybrid.

Hey Luiz! Can he not just clip a tiny piece of the tail as I've done before with some of my fish? Also, how hard is it to get DNA after a fish is frozen? Is ethyl alcohol not ideal? Apologies for all of the questions buddy... but you are a victim of your own knowledge! :thumbsup:

Copps

 

[jmaneyapanda]

I dunno... I don't think people are immediately jumping to the hybrid conclusion in this thread Or are you referring to the seller of the fish?

My bad. I was not refering to this thread, but instead in general. There has been a rather large influx of "hybrids" offered for sale recently, at a notable premium. I, in principle, object to much of this, as there is not much empirical evaluation of it. Merely speculative observation. But this is my personal issue pet peeve, that I have argued too much.

 

[jmaneyapanda]

This fish is probably a morph because there is no phenotypic input from both species. If it showed a mix of the phenotypes it would more likely be a hybrid. I think it is a little more difficult with tangs because of the lack of pattern. Like a yellow scopas tang IMO that could be a hybrid yellow and scopas, but I am not sure where they come from. They could come from a location where there are no yellow tangs which would point to morph. The white yellow tangs and queen angels... well what other tang or angel could they hybridize to produce that offspring... none IMO. Hence the morph. With the Centropyge hybrids (angels have more pattern usually) you can see the mixing of patterns from the parent species. You could see the darker yellow due to the rust color of the fishers and the clear tail from the fishers, but still had the orange across the back and mostly blue body like a resplendent just darker.

Your fish is most likely just missing some color and it seems that some of these angels revert back in captivity, like copps blue angel, and the bicolor angels that have aberrant coloration. So it will be interesting to see what coloration it turns out as it grows.

I understand what youre saying, but my point/question is more, what phenotypical traits must be shown, and how much? While I could agree and argue that I dont see much sexstriatus in this fish, I could just as easily make the argument that there is a little. So, at what point can we differentiate between an anomolous coloration, and a hybrid?

 

[Outerbank]

Great fish!!! Congratulations!

 

[copps]

Also Jeremy, where was this fish exported from? This should be known by the company that supplied the fish to your local shop...

 

[jmaneyapanda]

I dont know John. Ill ask and find out.

 

[tcmfish]

I understand what youre saying, but my point/question is more, what phenotypical traits must be shown, and how much? While I could agree and argue that I dont see much sexstriatus in this fish, I could just as easily make the argument that there is a little. So, at what point can we differentiate between an anomolous coloration, and a hybrid?

That is a good question. The way I look at it, if you can see obvious examples of two similar species in a fish then it is a hybrid. If it has another coloration not typical of that species and that coloration does not appear to come from a similar species then it is a morph. I think the obvious hybrids are easier to say that it is a hybrid, but some of the morphs that aren't so obvious need some looking into (DNA testing) before explanation of the color can really be had.

 

[jmaneyapanda]

That is a good question. The way I look at it, if you can see obvious examples of two similar species in a fish then it is a hybrid. If it has another coloration not typical of that species and that coloration does not appear to come from a similar species then it is a morph. I think the obvious hybrids are easier to say that it is a hybrid, but some of the morphs that aren't so obvious need some looking into (DNA testing) before explanation of the color can really be had.

But.......:spin2:

Lets say that this fish in question did have "angular" fins. Would that have made it a hybrid? Who says that its is "acceptably" anomolous for this fish to be pale, washed out, and lack typical phenotypes for the species, but not angular fins? And where is the cutoff point? Why cant some fish just appear atypical? Many species of anthias have appearances which coincide with other anthias, which has been "determined" to be mimicry, rather than hybridization. Other fish have bizarre and anomolous colorations "determined" to be genetic mutation, xanthic coloration, or otherwise, rather than hybridization.

IMO, and my opinion only, I would love to see some more empirical work on these "hybrids" that so frequently float through the hobby. I have questions regarding the DNA testing, and how much intrinsic value it may have, for this case. See here: http://glassbox-design.com/2009/dna-testing-marine-fish/ Do I have any suggestions? No, I am not a genetic scientist. Perhaps Luiz Rocha has more insight.

Please understand, I am not trying to be a pessimist, or neysayer, but instead merely hoping for a discussion.

 

[jmaneyapanda]

Also Jeremy, where was this fish exported from? This should be known by the company that supplied the fish to your local shop...

Collected in Bali.

 

[Luiz Rocha]

Wow, this is turning into an interesting conversation...

First things first, yes, a DNA test could be done with just a small piece of fin, but I wouldn't ask anybody to clip the fins of their expensive pets, that's why I only suggested the test after death. Ideally, you get the best results from a DNA test if tissue is fresh, but frozen is the next best thing. If tissue is preserved in ethanol it is fine for testing too. With the most sensitive modern machines, you can even extract DNA from dried fins.

Now to the second part of it. If I wanted to test if a fish is a hybrid or not, what I would do is compare their mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA) and nuclear DNA (nDNA) with each parent species. So, I would obtain sequences of a few nDNA (which are bi-parentally inherited) and mtDNA (which is maternally inherited) genes for each of the parent species and the potential hybrid. Because of the different inheritance of the genes we find discordances in the genetic make up of the hybrid, in other words, the hybrid will have some genes that are unique to the "mother" species and others that are from the "father" species.

Now to the more delicate question, the example given above of the two Zebrasoma species. In that case their mitochondrial DNA is very similar probably because their separation is very recent. However, in the study that you cite, they use the so-called "DNA barcode" gene, which is not a particularly fast evolving gene. The string of DNA is a mosaic of fast-evolving and slow evolving genes. For example, if you look at histone protein genes (these proteins are responsible for binding DNA together) they are what we call "conserved" genes, there is no difference in the sequence of these genes between for example humans and chimpanzees, but there are differences among other genes.

So, in the case of the Zebrasoma, if there were any suspected hybrids, the DNA tests would have to be more rigorous and involve much faster evolving genes than the "barcode" gene. And there are many of these genes out there, hell, you can tell with 99.99% accuracy if somebody is your parent or not within our own species, so you can certainly tell if the parents are from different species.

You are correct though that based in coloration alone we cannot be certain that the specimen is in fact a hybrid. It is entirely possible that it is just an odd color morph (which maybe makes its premium price worth it even if it is not a hybrid?).

Cheers!

 

[Luiz Rocha]

Collected in Bali.

Bali is a melting pot between faunas of the Pacific and Indian oceans. I think Bali is the single location where I saw the most reef fish hybrids. I just came back from a week of diving there and saw among other things hybrids between Centropyge vrolicki and C. eibli (or should I say intermediate color individuals since I did not sequence their DNA yet? )

 

[copps]

Collected in Bali.

Well, exported from Bali... which means it could be collected anywhere in that part of the world, but this leaves open the option of a hybrid between the two...

Bali is a melting pot between faunas of the Pacific and Indian oceans. I think Bali is the single location where I saw the most reef fish hybrids. I just came back from a week of diving there and saw among other things hybrids between Centropyge vrolicki and C. eibli (or should I say intermediate color individuals since I did not sequence their DNA yet? )

Luiz, I spoke with Jack (Randall) about this a while back, and he mentioned some event that took place a few million years ago when sea level lowered that essentially doubled all of the species found in the region as they were segregated... since then they've remixed, resulting in hybridization... I realize it wasn't really a literal doubling of species, but that is exactly how Jack termed it... quite fascinating... you look at most of the instances of hybridization there and you find it usually to be between two species or color morphs... one each primarily found in the Indian Ocean and the other Pacific... I remember Jack mentioned C. poliourus as an example... do you know that fish?

Incidentally, for those that saw it at MACNA, Julian Sprung did a talk on hybridization... quite fascinating... he talked about my recent Pomacanthus hybrid and how he presumed it to be an "accidental hybrid" resulting not from two fish of different species pairing and spawning, but rather two spawning events that were nearby in the water column, where the sperm from one spawning event fertilized the eggs of another spawning event (and species). Events in captivity have proved this could happen... including some from ORA itself where clownfish hybrids resulted in systems where no mixed species pairs were found, but common water was shared...

Copps

 

[jmaneyapanda]

FWIW, Julian looked at these pics, and he mentioned he thought it was a xanthometopon X navarchus.

 

[jmaneyapanda]

John, the supplier said it was collected in Bali. However accurate that may be.

 

[copps]

That is a documented hybrid... as are others Euxiphipops subgenus... There is a good photo of a clear xanthometaphon/navarchus hybrid in one of my books... I'll check it out tonight, along with your specimen when I can see it...

 

[copps]

John, the supplier said it was collected in Bali. However accurate that may be.

Yeah... the same suppliers that list their flame and goldflake angels to be from Hawaii...:spin2: As I said either way that location leaves the option open...

 

[myerst2]

Man. This type of stuff is what makes me love this hobby so much. Yes I can tell you many things about reef fish, that is if your a novice. Whereas I feel the knowledge I can learn from the likes of Luiz(What an amazing adddition to the RC community), Copps, and yes you too Jeremey, Jhemdel, etc. is amazing. So thanks. T

 

[copps]

Thanks for e-mailing the images Jeremy! What a fish! I do not see anything but xanthometopon in it... no navarchus or sextriatus I see... to me it looks like a normal xanthometopon with a distinct lack of nearly all of its yellow pigments... caudal region... pectoral fins and chest... in the face, where xanthometopon has the strongest yellow pigments, you still could see a bit in your specimen...

As to whether or not it will stay that way? It could go either way... For instance, in my Zebrasoma collection, I have a purple tang that has kept his white tail long term (his body is also grey and not purple)... one of my "koi" yellow tangs reverted back, gaining its yellow pigments... I expect my new one to do the same...

I am going to go out on a limb here and say that fish keeps that coloration... my history and experience says it won't, but my gut says it will as that fish has the same feeling other color morphs I've had that have kept the color had... (wow... please do not ask me to explain that last sentence)

What a fish... what a fish buddy...

Oh... can anyone that is good with photo editing software enhance just the yellow in those photos and repost? And Jeremy, can you perhaps take more photos with flash and repost?

John

 

[myerst2]

Hey John. Not sure if this is what your looking for, but he lower half of the body does show some vertical lines????? T Before and after

 

[jmaneyapanda]

What of the lack of the ocelli on the posterior dorsal fin? In life, the yellow is even quite washed out on the mask. Its only really visible as yellow at the base of the pectoral fins, and around the eyes. Everything else looks a beige/grey color. I will get some flash photos.