New Black Velvet Angel
- Thread starter ezhoops
- Start date
I always QT but that means isolation, more frequent feeding, observation. I have a permanent tank set up with live rock, etc, that is used for this purpose. If there is an issue requiring treatment, I use a different hospital tank and use the APPROPRIATE treatment which may or may not be copper. On the other hand, I always treat for flukes. Treating a newly arrived fish is, in MY opinion, very bad practice unless that fish exhibits symptoms. And if that is the case, why was it purchased? Remember quarantine and treatment are two very different issues although many people mix the two which I consider an improper way of livestock management. If you have multiple fish in quarantine, that is not a desirable process. If you introduce any new fish into a quarantine with already existing fish, you effectively restart the clock.
While cryptocaryon is one of the more common parasites, it is not the only possible parasite that can be brought into your tank. The life cycle of this parasite is interesting and is important to understand when evaluating a treatment. The stage where the parasite is attached to a fish is called a trophont. The trophont will spend three to seven days (depending on temperature) feeding on the fish and that is what you see symptomatically when you see "salt sprinkled on the fish". After that, the trophont leaves the fish and becomes what is called a protomont. This protomont travels to the substrate and begins to crawl around for usually two to eight hours, but it could go for as long as eighteen hours after it leaves it's fish host. Once the protomont attaches to a surface, it begins to encyst and is now called a tomont. Division inside the cyst into hundreds of daughter parasites, called tomites, begins shortly thereafter. This noninfectious stage can last anywhere from three to twenty-eight days. During this extended period, the parasite cyst is lying in wait for a host. After this period, the tomites hatch and begin swimming around, looking for a fish host. At this point, they are called theronts, and they must find a host within twenty-four hours or die. They prefer to seek out the skin and gill tissue, then transform into trophonts, and begin the process all over again. What this means is that when your tank is infected, you can actually see symptom during a very small part of the life cycle, and it why your tank is infected even though your fish are resistent. it will also explain why symptoms come and go.
Many hobbyists are fooled into believing they have cured their fish of the parasites, only to find Ich present again on fish a few weeks later; a reason why following through with a full treatment protocol is so important. Don't make this mistake and be lulled into a false sense of security. The parasites may be in a stage where they are merely regrouping and multiplying for their "next offensive." In the wild, this sort of massive reproductive phase ensures that a few will find a suitable host to continue on the cycle. In the close confines of our aquariums, though, it means comparatively massive infection rates.
This disease is usually associated with several environmental triggers. Changes in water temperature, exposure to high levels of ammonia, nitrite, or nitrate, low pH levels, low dissolved oxygen often associated with overcrowding, are all factors contributing to the onset of the disease. You could lump all of these in a general category of "stress", but it is more appropriate to think of all of these as "unnatural conditions". In fact, Cryptocaryon irritans is rare in the wild even more unlikely to be lethal. Ich is truly a disease that exploits the conditions of captivity to reproduce and easily find suitable hosts.
By the way, trophonts are under the skin so cleaner wrasses and cleaner shrimp have no real effect on reducing this parasite.
There are three ways to eliminate cryptocaryon in a tank: hyposalinity (SG 1.009), copper, and tank transfer. But if you have a tank that is infested, the only way to eliminate it is by leaving your tank fallow for at least six weeks (two lifecycles). Lymphocystis, on the other hand is viral and requires no treatment other than feeding properly in good water conditions.
Many hobbyists are fooled into believing they have cured their fish of the parasites, only to find Ich present again on fish a few weeks later; a reason why following through with a full treatment protocol is so important. Don't make this mistake and be lulled into a false sense of security. The parasites may be in a stage where they are merely regrouping and multiplying for their "next offensive." In the wild, this sort of massive reproductive phase ensures that a few will find a suitable host to continue on the cycle. In the close confines of our aquariums, though, it means comparatively massive infection rates.
This disease is usually associated with several environmental triggers. Changes in water temperature, exposure to high levels of ammonia, nitrite, or nitrate, low pH levels, low dissolved oxygen often associated with overcrowding, are all factors contributing to the onset of the disease. You could lump all of these in a general category of "stress", but it is more appropriate to think of all of these as "unnatural conditions". In fact, Cryptocaryon irritans is rare in the wild even more unlikely to be lethal. Ich is truly a disease that exploits the conditions of captivity to reproduce and easily find suitable hosts.
By the way, trophonts are under the skin so cleaner wrasses and cleaner shrimp have no real effect on reducing this parasite.
There are three ways to eliminate cryptocaryon in a tank: hyposalinity (SG 1.009), copper, and tank transfer. But if you have a tank that is infested, the only way to eliminate it is by leaving your tank fallow for at least six weeks (two lifecycles). Lymphocystis, on the other hand is viral and requires no treatment other than feeding properly in good water conditions.
Which was almost certainly not cryptocaryon because there were no survivors; more likely it was oodinium which is deadly and is very difficult to treat properly with copper and cannot be treated with hyposalinity although a fresh water dip is recommended. So your current protocol would most likely NOT have prevented that particular wipeout. And I am not criticizing, just offering a different perspective.
MCCOOL
Active member
So is it possible for a fish to have cryptocaryon, and it not be visible? Or is the only stage of the life cycle that's actually on the fish, always visible?
I did remove all of my fish from my DT for 8 weeks and treated with cupramine, and I haven't seen any signs of the disease since. I now proactively treat all new fish (after they are settled and eating) with cupramine and prazi.
If you don't think it's a good idea to proactively treat the fish, How do you suggest I keep my DT cryptocaryon free? If I observe the fish for a month or two in QT and don't see any visible signs, is it safe to assume it's cryptocaryon free?
Sorry if I'm derailing the thread here, it's a very interesting discussion.
I did remove all of my fish from my DT for 8 weeks and treated with cupramine, and I haven't seen any signs of the disease since. I now proactively treat all new fish (after they are settled and eating) with cupramine and prazi.
If you don't think it's a good idea to proactively treat the fish, How do you suggest I keep my DT cryptocaryon free? If I observe the fish for a month or two in QT and don't see any visible signs, is it safe to assume it's cryptocaryon free?
Sorry if I'm derailing the thread here, it's a very interesting discussion.
ezhoops
New member
MCCOOL makes some good points.
Snorvich, thanks for the info, I've read all that many times and are fully aware of the life cycle and that I just restarted the clock, which by the way I am not happy about. As stated earlier this Black velvet was on order for a while and I figured (as with most LFS, you can order and never get what you want) it would never come in, it did and so I was stuck in aqward situation.
back to MCCOOLs points, and if I may use this example. You put a single clown fish in QT for 2 months have no issues with that fish, shows no signs of anything, the fish is eating and swimming, and completely not stressed. How can you possibly determine this fish is without ich? IMO the fish's immunity has not been challenged and therefore it might not show symptoms but actually have ich.
I as well as others just ultimately want to have a parasite free DT.
Snorvich, thanks for the info, I've read all that many times and are fully aware of the life cycle and that I just restarted the clock, which by the way I am not happy about. As stated earlier this Black velvet was on order for a while and I figured (as with most LFS, you can order and never get what you want) it would never come in, it did and so I was stuck in aqward situation.
back to MCCOOLs points, and if I may use this example. You put a single clown fish in QT for 2 months have no issues with that fish, shows no signs of anything, the fish is eating and swimming, and completely not stressed. How can you possibly determine this fish is without ich? IMO the fish's immunity has not been challenged and therefore it might not show symptoms but actually have ich.
I as well as others just ultimately want to have a parasite free DT.
I reiterated the life cycle of cryptocaryon (and, by the way, oodinium has a similar life cycle) because the fish will show symptoms within the quarantine period if it has the parasite. Assuming that it does not have it, and shows no symptoms, it is safe to transfer to the display tank.
But the point that is being lost, perhaps, is that each of us should have on hand the meds to treat the various possible pests that might come in with new fish. Simply treating for cryptocaryon arbitrarily may be contraproductive even if it HAS cryptocaryon because copper inhibits the eating response to a greater or lesser degree (more so with some fish) and building up tolerance and immune response is especially important in establishing resistance.
Now, I am NOT a fish disease person, but having experienced a whole lot of different ones, this is simply the practice that *I* use: quarantine with no treatment but exceptional feeding routine, if no symptoms in six weeks, I am good to go. If there are symptoms, decide what they are and treat accordingly. But always use prazipro for all fish.
But the point that is being lost, perhaps, is that each of us should have on hand the meds to treat the various possible pests that might come in with new fish. Simply treating for cryptocaryon arbitrarily may be contraproductive even if it HAS cryptocaryon because copper inhibits the eating response to a greater or lesser degree (more so with some fish) and building up tolerance and immune response is especially important in establishing resistance.
Now, I am NOT a fish disease person, but having experienced a whole lot of different ones, this is simply the practice that *I* use: quarantine with no treatment but exceptional feeding routine, if no symptoms in six weeks, I am good to go. If there are symptoms, decide what they are and treat accordingly. But always use prazipro for all fish.
roktsintst
New member
Steve, How long can velvet live on a fish before showing syptoms? Or ich for that matter?
Sir I never said that I recommend treating with COPPER. I stated proactively qt'ing only. I also mentioned that copper may not have been the best choice but there are other meds and methods to use to proactively qt.
Hormigaquatica even backed that up with his/her very own habits of PROACTIVELY QT'ing/TREATING every fish for intestinal worms. Even though he/she stated agreeing with your statement.
BTW Yes it was velvet that wiped out my tank.
Within the lifecycle described above, five weeks should do it, but most/many people go six weeks.
Sir I never said that I recommend treating with COPPER. I stated proactively qt'ing only. I also mentioned that copper may not have been the best choice but there are other meds and methods to use to proactively qt.
Hormigaquatica even backed that up with his/her very own habits of PROACTIVELY QT'ing/TREATING every fish for intestinal worms. Even though he/she stated agreeing with your statement.
BTW Yes it was velvet that wiped out my tank.
Again, I recommend NOT treating until symptoms present themselves. However, I always treat with prazipro during the initial day of quarantine. But of course, each can do what they feel is best.
You just contradicted yourself sir.
You do actually proactively QT and thank you for proving my point.
Oh, and one other interesting "factoid". For some reason (perhaps others know why), on fish that have developed resistance, trophonts drop off prematurely and perish. Fish that have developed resistance for cryptocaryon do not necessarily have resistance for oodinium and vice versa.
In all my posts I said that I use prazipro initially on all fish. No contradiction. But again, this is not a war of words.
roktsintst
New member
So why would I see ich pop up on my powder blue every few months with no new additions?
So true. Too many people go out, buy fish and QT like "its the cool thing to do" and kill too many fish while in QT. I've never understood this. Purchase, feed, observe, medicate, if needed, and then acclimate to tank mates.
:beer:
I've under the school of thought that there is always ich in a reef tank. And just like humans goes through periods of low immunity, so do fish. My Black shows signs of ich from time to time, but I've come to understand a couple spots is equal to me having a runny nose; it too will pass.
roktsintst
New member
Mark, that's what I always thought but when I was talking w copps the other day he said he doesn't agree. To each their own for sure but I've got some fish I don't want to have to replace! I treat proactivly and will continue to do so more as a deterant for velvet. It is also very frustrating to qt a fish for 8 weeks and put him in the tank only for him to get ich! So now im contemplating pulling my reef apart. To catch all my fish and qt them whether they have anything or not to prevent this in the future.
Yep, there are two different school of thought and I have done them both. I think both schools can agree that ich is more apparent when a fish is stressed in its environment. Sometimes we place too many fish in a row and do not let them get fully used to their new tank mates before adding the next. Good luck Ryan as your tank is amazing :crazy1:
roktsintst
New member
Thanks Mark.
Im dont think the way the fish were added was an issue. There will be stress on a fish any time a fish is added to a tank, QT'd or not. I had a UV bulb go out and before that I hadn't seen ich in the tank since I set it up. I didn't replace it for 2 weeks and then I noticed some ich on my Powder blue who was never QT'd or medicated. Then a little on the Conspic. So i've pulled them and they are in QT with copper as we speak. But I dont want to medicate them and then add them back to a tank that has ich in it just for them to get it again! Very Frustrating!
Im dont think the way the fish were added was an issue. There will be stress on a fish any time a fish is added to a tank, QT'd or not. I had a UV bulb go out and before that I hadn't seen ich in the tank since I set it up. I didn't replace it for 2 weeks and then I noticed some ich on my Powder blue who was never QT'd or medicated. Then a little on the Conspic. So i've pulled them and they are in QT with copper as we speak. But I dont want to medicate them and then add them back to a tank that has ich in it just for them to get it again! Very Frustrating!
